premature forging

[DiM]

I've mentioned before that a few of the maps in final forge should probably be moved out and re-developed in the foundry to be sure that they meet final forge standards (especially when a couple are going to be overhauled).

I think niche maps are good and a necessary part of CC. I think by being a Qwert map, Ardennes fits into that niche category and will get support when quenched.

we don't need every map to have feudal war popularity (I'm not saying anyone is saying this), but at the same time letting a few 'unpopular' maps through isn't bad either.

Now, if you're a first time mapmaker, then I think your map must at least seem to have widespread popularity. someone that has quenched a map or two or three should be given more leeway in the maps they make. discrimination? sure. but, I think somewhat deserved.

yes niche maps are good but only if they are made good. take waterloo for example, a niche map done to perfection. ardennes is also a niche map but it simply doesn't have the support waterloo had and thus it hasn't really evolved. the role of the foundry is to make maps that bring enjoyment to people whether they are few or many. this happens via feedback and updating. if a map doesn't get feedback then it doesn't improve (we can always agree there's always room for improvement). ardennes didn't get feedback so it didn't improve. furthermore the fact it didn't get feedback shows it has little or no fans. same with spaceness south africa and others. as for the "post-quenching support" you're talking about, what makes you so sure? what if the map is a total failure? shouldn't these answers be found during the process?? after all this is the purpose of the foundry isn't it? if it's not then i suggest immediate quenching of every map in sight. if it doesn't get played then hey, at least we let through a few "unpopular" maps.


as for the discrimination i don't even want to hear about it. this means that if at some point i get 20 maps quenched then i can simply take a photo of my crap and post it as a map for instant quenching??

[DiM]

So whats your beff about maps that make it to final forge of your not intrested with them?

ugh, i don't know, perhaps the desire to see maps get better and better?

let me ask you a question. i make a map that nobody wants to play. it has let's say decent graphics and decent gameplay. nothing spectacular nothing fancy just average. and yet nobody seems to like it or even worse they are indifferent to it. will i get that map quenched? normally i should because:

whats your beff about maps that make it to final forge of your not intrested with them?

we don't need every map to have feudal war popularity

letting a few 'unpopular' maps through isn't bad either.

Why should someone who follows the process and produces something of acceptable quality be shunned because they have a less support?

[oaktown]

In principal I agree with DiM 100%. Maps should receive a great deal of feedback before they reach the Forge, because then the Forge process is easier and we can all sleep easier knowing that many eyes have commented on the map to make it CC-worthy. The more support, the better the map. Unpopular maps shouldn't be Forged. Maps in the Forge shouldn't sit around.

However, in practice this isn't so easy. Mapmakers want specific expectations and guidelines, so how do we set standards for support? Just because a map has had 10,000 comments doesn't mean it is any good, and some very good maps have gone through the process very quickly. DiM's Age maps are a good example - each one seems to get made faster because he knows what he is doing... do we say that Age of Magic has to wait because it hasn't had as many hits as the D-Day or Malta maps? No, because it didn't need as many to be ready.

When I look at a map that is getting close to receiving my stamp, I look at how much feedback the map has gotten. If a map has been around a while and there has been a lot of feedback, I feel that the map has been vetted by the community and I will be pretty easy on the mapmaker. If a map hasn't gotten much attention, I will nit-pick that map if I think it is worth the attention, or just let the project die if I don't think it is going anywhere.

If you don't believe me, you shoudl talk to qwert, who probably would have spontaneously combusted had I asked him to change the attack lines in Ardenndes one more time. Ardennes certainly has not been the most popular map in the Foundry history, and it didn't get a lot of support in the Foundry. But in the end, Gimil and Andy and I and others watched the map pretty closely, and I would not have given qwert the gameplay stamp had I not thought it was playable. If/when it is quenched it might not be very popular to play, but that doesn't mean the map did not meet the Foundry's expectations.

Also: the Foundry users need to take some responsibility if a bad map is promoted, because feedback can come in two forms: support, and tough love. If a map is getting little feedback but it's all positive, does it move on? For example, I'm making a High Seas map and, relative to my past projects, I'm not getting a lot of feedback. But all of the feedback I've gotten has been constructive/positive. This means either 1) the map should be Forged, or 2) the map should be thrown away forever. Of course, I'd like to see it Forged, but maybe some people will say "what the hell are you doing forging that steaming pile!"

Oddly enough, there have been some behind-the-scenes conversations about the Forge, and what happens to maps after they've been there for a few months... or when major changes have been made that alter gameplay. I don't think we've ever had to move maps back to the main Foundry, but with the proliferation of maps and mapmakers it might be time.

[Qwert]

Dim
this means that if at some point i get 20 maps quenched then i can simply take a photo of my crap and post it as a map for instant quenching??

Ok,now i can understand that you hate Ardennes map.Also aim not a fan of yours AOR series,and i dont posted not once in these topics. Map Foundry is place,who have very small number of visitors,and CA and Andy fill empty space,when some map dont have enough feedback(ofcourse sometime you must criticise hes jobs,but these is normal situation).You can not expect that every map have big number of feedback(over 60 map in production),and every map who pass Map Idea forum,have chance to be quenched(these mean that have enough support).Also you can not predict,who map will be popular and who map will not be popular(Valey of the King have very interesting gameplay,but its not popular in game).
Ardennes Offensive have similar terittories like Cairnswk Rails, and these mean diferent game style then previous mine maps.
Did Gimil predict that hes Feudal map will be so popular?I dont think so.
Belive me CA and Andy will not quench any map who is "Crap"(like you say).

[DiM]

In principal I agree with DiM 100%. Maps should receive a great deal of feedback before they reach the Forge, because then the Forge process is easier and we can all sleep easier knowing that many eyes have commented on the map to make it CC-worthy. The more support, the better the map. Unpopular maps shouldn't be Forged. Maps in the Forge shouldn't sit around.

thank you. that's exactly what i'm trying to say.

However, in practice this isn't so easy. Mapmakers want specific expectations and guidelines, so how do we set standards for support? Just because a map has had 10,000 comments doesn't mean it is any good, and some very good maps have gone through the process very quickly. DiM's Age maps are a good example - each one seems to get made faster because he knows what he is doing... do we say that Age of Magic has to wait because it hasn't had as many hits as the D-Day or Malta maps? No, because it didn't need as many to be ready.

true theory and practice often differ. age of magic was indeed a quick quench. but it was done because it had a lot of support and things moved faster than normal. time is of no importance here as for example magic got in 2-3 weeks double the feedback ardennes got in 4 months or spaceness in 6 months. that's real support.

When I look at a map that is getting close to receiving my stamp, I look at how much feedback the map has gotten. If a map has been around a while and there has been a lot of feedback, I feel that the map has been vetted by the community and I will be pretty easy on the mapmaker. If a map hasn't gotten much attention, I will nit-pick that map if I think it is worth the attention, or just let the project die if I don't think it is going anywhere.

If you don't believe me, you shoudl talk to qwert, who probably would have spontaneously combusted had I asked him to change the attack lines in Ardenndes one more time. Ardennes certainly has not been the most popular map in the Foundry history, and it didn't get a lot of support in the Foundry. But in the end, Gimil and Andy and I and others watched the map pretty closely, and I would not have given qwert the gameplay stamp had I not thought it was playable. If/when it is quenched it might not be very popular to play, but that doesn't mean the map did not meet the Foundry's expectations.

i believe you and i see both you and gimil posting in various threads giving feedback and helping but while that's a good thing, it shouldn't be the only support a map has. honestly i'd like to see the process so smooth that you and gimil only have to come and say: "this is great i see all the previous posters helped and the map has improved nicely i have no further comments here's your stamp". unfortunately this is not the case as for example qwert's map is almost entirely supported by you or gimil with very little outside input. regardless of how much time you or gimil invest in studying a map and making it better there will always be something that eludes you, something that another person would probably see and comment on. that's why i advocate the popularity thing. a map made in 3 persons will always be worse than a map made in 100 persons.

Also: the Foundry users need to take some responsibility if a bad map is promoted, because feedback can come in two forms: support, and tough love. If a map is getting little feedback but it's all positive, does it move on? For example, I'm making a High Seas map and, relative to my past projects, I'm not getting a lot of feedback. But all of the feedback I've gotten has been constructive/positive. This means either 1) the map should be Forged, or 2) the map should be thrown away forever. Of course, I'd like to see it Forged, but maybe some people will say "what the hell are you doing forging that steaming pile!"

well there's a problem here. i don't have time to read and comment on all maps so i'm confined to just those that attract me, but i do take a look at all forged maps and when i see something i don't like i comment. problem is i'm gonna be called a jerk. i did it with pudget or civil war, i'm doing it know and asshole is the word on everybody's lips. you say take responsibility, take action, do something, well i'm doing and this is what happens. luckily i don't care what people say about me but others do so if they see i'm being called an asshole for taking action, for sure they will not take action for fear of going through the same things.

Oddly enough, there have been some behind-the-scenes conversations about the Forge, and what happens to maps after they've been there for a few months... or when major changes have been made that alter gameplay. I don't think we've ever had to move maps back to the main Foundry, but with the proliferation of maps and mapmakers it might be time.

yes it is time

[DiM]

Dim
this means that if at some point i get 20 maps quenched then i can simply take a photo of my crap and post it as a map for instant quenching??

Ok,now i can understand that you hate Ardennes map.Also aim not a fan of yours AOR series,and i dont posted not once in these topics. Map Foundry is place,who have very small number of visitors,and CA and Andy fill empty space,when some map dont have enough feedback(ofcourse sometime you must criticise hes jobs,but these is normal situation).You can not expect that every map have big number of feedback(over 60 map in production),and every map who pass Map Idea forum,have chance to be quenched(these mean that have enough support).Also you can not predict,who map will be popular and who map will not be popular(Valey of the King have very interesting gameplay,but its not popular in game).
Ardennes Offensive have similar terittories like Cairnswk Rails, and these mean diferent game style then previous mine maps.
Did Gimil predict that hes Feudal map will be so popular?I dont think so.
Belive me CA and Andy will not quench any map who is "Crap"(like you say).

qwert you're insane i don't hate ardennes and that crap comment had nothing to do with ardennes. it was about the leeway comments edbeard made.

also you are wrong about 2 things. a map leaving ideas and coming to foundry doesn't mean it has support. it can die very easily.
and second i don't expect that every map has lots of feedback but i do expect every quenched map to have it. plain and simple no feedback=no support=abandon.

[Qwert]

and second i don't expect that every map has lots of feedback but i do expect every quenched map to have it. plain and simple no feedback=no support=abandon.

Well you dont comment what i wrote in second page.You have plenty quenched map who have 200-300 feedback(Carribean have 131).So yours formula is wrong.
Now i will stop these Debate. Even if i not participiate in yours AOR topic, i respect your job,and i dont want to arguing about something what bouth dont have influence(Geting feedbacks).

[DiM]

and second i don't expect that every map has lots of feedback but i do expect every quenched map to have it. plain and simple no feedback=no support=abandon.

Well you dont comment what i wrote in second page.You have plenty quenched map who have 200-300 feedback(Carribean have 131).So yours formula is wrong.

actually i did comment. it's exactly the first post in second page.

Now i will stop these Debate. Even if i not participiate in yours AOR topic, i respect your job,and i dont want to arguing about something what bouth dont have influence(Geting feedbacks).

and we do have influence on getting feedback. it's quite simple actually, do nice graphics, choose an attractive theme and create a good gameplay. do that and the map will get feedback.

the first thing that attracts people is theme and possibly gameplay then when people are hooked nice graphics are a must to keep them hooked.

[Elijah S]

I prematurely forged once, but I'd been drinking and she was waaaay hot!

[oaktown]

i'd like to see the process so smooth that you and gimil only have to come and say: "this is great i see all the previous posters helped and the map has improved nicely i have no further comments here's your stamp". unfortunately this is not the case as for example qwert's map is almost entirely supported by you or gimil with very little outside input... a map made in 3 persons will always be worse than a map made in 100 persons.

I agree, and your utopian view of how the Foundry should work is my dream as well. But I am often PM'd by mapmakers and asked what they need to do to get my stamp. Should I look at the post count and tell them that they need to find 50 people to comment on their map? Or should I look at the map and tell them what I think is missing? My job title suggests I should do the latter, so that is what I do.

i don't have time to read and comment on all maps so i'm confined to just those that attract me, but i do take a look at all forged maps and when i see something i don't like i comment. problem is i'm gonna be called a jerk.

Instead of waiting until the map reaches the Forge, I would encourage Foundry-goers to watch the stamp tags in the thread title. If you see that a map has GP or Gr or both, that map is probably headed to the Forge unless somebody speaks up. Andy won't move a map if there are many concerns that haven't been addressed, but if Gimil and I both stamp a map and nobody says that there are problems with it, it's going to move on. This was the case with Ardennes - I stamped it because it met my standards, Gimil stamped it because it met his standards, it sat there for five days and nobody said anything, and now it's in the Forge.

Anyway, if you have problems with a map, DiM, I would like to see you use your energy to make it better. Rest assured that we are already tackling the issue of maps stalling in the Forge.

[DiM]

i'd like to see the process so smooth that you and gimil only have to come and say: "this is great i see all the previous posters helped and the map has improved nicely i have no further comments here's your stamp". unfortunately this is not the case as for example qwert's map is almost entirely supported by you or gimil with very little outside input... a map made in 3 persons will always be worse than a map made in 100 persons.

I agree, and your utopian view of how the Foundry should work is my dream as well. But I am often PM'd by mapmakers and asked what they need to do to get my stamp. Should I look at the post count and tell them that they need to find 50 people to comment on their map? Or should I look at the map and tell them what I think is missing? My job title suggests I should do the latter, so that is what I do.

of course you have to help them, i didn't say that but it might be worth mentioning that the map doesn't seem to have enough support if that is the case.

i don't have time to read and comment on all maps so i'm confined to just those that attract me, but i do take a look at all forged maps and when i see something i don't like i comment. problem is i'm gonna be called a jerk.

Instead of waiting until the map reaches the Forge, I would encourage Foundry-goers to watch the stamp tags in the thread title. If you see that a map has GP or Gr or both, that map is probably headed to the Forge unless somebody speaks up. Andy won't move a map if there are many concerns that haven't been addressed, but if Gimil and I both stamp a map and nobody says that there are problems with it, it's going to move on. This was the case with Ardennes - I stamped it because it met my standards, Gimil stamped it because it met his standards, it sat there for five days and nobody said anything, and now it's in the Forge.

it met your standards and gimil standards but it didn't meet the support standards. i believe the current rules clearly state:

5. To proceed through the foundry the community must show a reasonable amount of interest towards a map.

this is a neglected rule in such cases as ardennes or spaceness. it says reasonable amount of interest. less than a post per day is way bellow reasonable in ardennes map and if you analyze spaceness the stats are even scarier as that's a 6 months long map.

Anyway, if you have problems with a map, DiM, I would like to see you use your energy to make it better. Rest assured that we are already tackling the issue of maps stalling in the Forge.

i'm not having problems with a specific map or maps. please do not mistake this thread as some kind of crusade vs ardennes or spaceness or south africa. it just happened that these were the maps i consider not worthy of a forge. i have nothing against those map makers or their maps.
this is a crusade to make the whole process better.
i mean qwert had to bump his ardennes map several times because it has fallen on second page of the foundry. that's not normal. if a map goes to second page it's clear something is wrong.

also it's worth mentioning that since the forge the ardennes map received just one congratulatory thread. that's it. yeti went and said congrats and that's all. despite all the commotion created by this tread not even a single person even bothered to go and post something there. and of course now some of you will feel obligated and post congrats but after that nothing will happen. the map will spend another week or month in the forge waiting and waiting until finally it will get quenched since the logical reaction would be no posts = no problems with the map. wrong no posts=no interest.

[wcaclimbing]

ok DiM.
I think its time to stop bashing the ardennes map.
thats enough.

[oaktown]

I agree with wcaclimbing, DiM, if you want to talk about policy then please, do so. I'll agree to stop using Ardennes as an example if you will.

The problem is how do we define "a reasonable amount of interest towards a map." Suggestions?

[InkL0sed]

ok DiM.
I think its time to stop bashing the ardennes map.
thats enough.

I disagree. I think everybody that reads this thread will rush to see Ardennes now.

[DiM]

The problem is how do we define "a reasonable amount of interest towards a map." Suggestions?

fairly simple and since ardennes map is off limits i'll try to analyze another map.

picked at random we have the mexico map popularity/support analysis:

started feb 01, 2008. this makes it 76 days old.
total posts 57
posts per day: 0.75
breakdown of posts:
fumandomuerte (the author): 13 posts
Sven Hassel: 1 post telling the author the map needs to be posted in ideas and that the draft is good
gimil (CA): 1 saying just "moved"
InkL0sed: 1 feedback post
Sir. Ricco: 1 post agreeing with inkl0sed
Ogrecrusher: 5 posts saying "i like this" and everything looks fine or correcting another poster's spelling and generally small talk
Keredrex: 1 post saying just "awesome"
Coleman (CA): 3 posts. one with giving feedback, one giving the idea stamp and one with a one line comment
Grooveman2007: 1 short post disagreeing with inkl0sed
Lone.prophet: 1 post - short feedback
edbeard: 3 posts all giving extensive feedback
Widomakers: 1 post giving feedback
militant: agreeing with edbeard
iancanton: 3 posts with extensive feedback
wcaclimbing: 1 post correcting spelling
Skittles!: 2 posts asking about a border confusion and then thanking for the answer
tenio: 2 posts. in one he doesn't like v3 and in the other he corrects a spelling mistake on the map
jakejake: saying just "i like it"
cairnswk: 1 post about army circles
yeti_c: 2 posts liking the start and asking for a minor change
oaktown (CA): 2 posts. one with good detailed feedback and one about rewording something on the map.
FreeMan10: 4 posts general spamming.
Ninjai Jr: 1 post giving feedback
KingPrime: 1 post, small comment about 2 borders
whitestazn88: 1 post about him not liking pink
Gozar: 1 post about rewording an instruction on the map
Andy (FF): 1 post about rewording the same instruction on the map
theMexican: 1 post saying he likes it.

total posts without those made by the map maker and andy +CAs: 37
posts per day: 0.48

and the analysis can go on with such things as looking how many people gave feedback ( and what's the number of posts that gave feedback.
i mean it's pretty clear that despite a general feeling of approval the mexico map isn't popular. in fact i haven't seen a single post saying the map is bad and such things. everybody either gave feedback said it's great or spammed.
the graphics are more than decent the gameplay likewise and yet the map isn't final forged yet. why? because it doesn't have supporters.
in theory one could say the map is ready and that there are no complaints about either graphics or gameplay but the general feeling is that the map is not wanted.

stats like this could be easily kept by a CA and it only took me 10 minutes to write all this, i imagine it would take maybe 30 minutes a day to constantly update such a database and gauge properly the popularity of a map. simply log in and note what else has been posted in each map.

because as i previously mentione it's not only about the number of posts but also about what those posts are about. a map with 100 feedback posts is far more worthy of a quench than a map with 300 spam posts.

hope this helps and i want to repeeat that i have nothing against the maps used as examples or their map makers, i have something against the system.

[InkL0sed]

Mexico is not a good example. I don't think fumandomuerte has been around in a while. That map should probably have a vacation tag on it or something.

[DiM]

Mexico is not a good example. I don't think fumandomuerte has been around in a while. That map should probably have a vacation tag on it or something.

i'll agree and consider the map on vacation from the day of the last post Mar 13, 2008
that means the calculations are as follows:
started feb 01, 2008. this makes it 42 days old. (until vacation)
total posts 57
posts per day: 1.36

total posts without those made by the map maker and andy +CAs: 37
posts per day: 0.88 (sorry i said i won't mention ardennes but that's the exact number as ardennes had in the stats presented in th first post)

even with a presumed vacation mode and changed stats the map still shows no clear interest.

and that's despite nice graphics (better than some maps that are in final forge now) and good gameplay (i could not find any major flaws).

so good graphics and good gameplay but little support. why isn't this map in final forge??
i think it should be if gimil's statement is correct:

Why should someone who follows the process and produces something of acceptable quality be shunned because they have a less support?

[TaCktiX]

Heh, my two maps Periodic Madness and Citadel have nearly twice as many posts alone as Mexico does, and they're still in Map Ideas. So where's the line between plenty of support/feedback/comments and stamps? Sadly this seems to work both ways: late foundry, early forging.

EDIT: did the post-per-day number crunching.

Periodic Madness
Existence since 22nd March, 2008 (25 days)
Posts: 124
Posts/day: 4.96
Posts by Creator(s): 56 (45.16%, keep in mind it's a joint project)
Posts by C.A.s: 3 (2.4%, all by Gimil)
Posts by others: 65 (47.58%)

The Citadel
Existence since 24th January, 2008 (83 days, and this is being generous, since true Version 1 was not posted until 21 March, 2008, making the map proper 26 days old)
Posts: 103
Posts/day: 1.24 (original topic creation) or 3.54 (Version 1 release, subtracting all posts made prior to that [92 total])
Posts by Creator: 36 (34.95%)
Posts by C.A.s: 2 (1.94%, all by Gimil, one saying [ADV IDEA])
Posts by others: 65 (63.11%)

So I doubt either of these maps is getting any "extra" attention by C.A.s to get moved through the Foundry process, yet they're retaining more interest than several maps presently in Foundry.

[oaktown]

stats like this could be easily kept by a CA and it only took me 10 minutes to write all this, i imagine it would take maybe 30 minutes a day to constantly update such a database and gauge properly the popularity of a map. simply log in and note what else has been posted in each map.

Stats like that would be even more easily kept by somebody who wasn't a CA, since we're doing a lot of other stuff. I'm sure you have 30 minutes a day for something like this, DiM.

But seriously, I'm sure you'll agree that a quantitative analysis of posts will never tell the entire story. And even if it did, who gets to decide what a good number of posts per day is? You? Me? I'm at about 1.5 posts per day in High Seas... do we quench it, or scrap it?

[edbeard]

I should've explained myself a bit better. When I said 'unpopular' (notice the quotes) I was just talking about maps that don't have tons of support. Not unpopular but just not popular (yes there's a difference).

Some people's maps (qwert is a good example) are developed quite differently. He shows stages of his production where basically there isn't much to comment on so his 'stats' are a bit skewed. Additionally, qwert, as an experienced mapmaker, is quite knowledgeable at making maps so he doesn't have as much for people to comment about. I know that I don't often comment on maps that I know I like but I don't see anything wrong. I'm guessing other people do this as well. Kinda like a 'carry on' attitude.

If I make a post saying, "I like this map." Do we say that is support? If you say, "this map doesn't have enough support" and then 5 people come in and say "I like this map" does that make a big difference? I just think that I could go into chat and ask people if they like it and if they'll comment. I'm sure most halfway decent maps would get people saying they like i.

Obviously support also comes in feedback but what if there isn't much to be done? If we have two maps and one is more quench ready than the other and place them in the foundry, the one with more to do will get more constructive feedback. Does this alone mean it's more popular? Obviously not because the maps themselves play a role.


I just question where we draw the line between enough support and not enough. though I definitely agree with DiM that maps shouldn't be stagnant in Final Forge.

[bryguy]

i really want to comment without threadjacking

but u guys are almost pushing me to it

and your posts are so long that i cant read them all before 7:30

oh well ill comment when i finish

but from what ive seen your all bashing ardennes (or at least DiM is) yet known of u are bashing conqueropoly, which in my opinion now was the most prematurely forged map in all my time on CC

[yeti_c]

but from what ive seen your all bashing ardennes (or at least DiM is) yet known of u are bashing conqueropoly, which in my opinion now was the most prematurely forged map in all my time on CC

A valid point... but ultimately wrong - DiM did mention 'opoly as being prematurely forged... I for one would hate to see this map quenched in it's current state.

C.

[bryguy]

but from what ive seen your all bashing ardennes (or at least DiM is) yet known of u are bashing conqueropoly, which in my opinion now was the most prematurely forged map in all my time on CC

A valid point... but ultimately wrong - DiM did mention 'opoly as being prematurely forged... I for one would hate to see this map quenched in it's current state.

C.

same here, which is sad since i just took over graphix, but idk what all to do for it cause NOBODY WILL COMMENT.

and i didnt know that dim had mentioned it, cause all your posts are so long i had time only to skim.

the only thing i see wrong with Ardennes is that its a little confusing, and maybe a slight graphix update would be needed, but thats all i can see.

[DiM]

stats like this could be easily kept by a CA and it only took me 10 minutes to write all this, i imagine it would take maybe 30 minutes a day to constantly update such a database and gauge properly the popularity of a map. simply log in and note what else has been posted in each map.

Stats like that would be even more easily kept by somebody who wasn't a CA, since we're doing a lot of other stuff. I'm sure you have 30 minutes a day for something like this, DiM.

But seriously, I'm sure you'll agree that a quantitative analysis of posts will never tell the entire story. And even if it did, who gets to decide what a good number of posts per day is? You? Me? I'm at about 1.5 posts per day in High Seas... do we quench it, or scrap it?

stats like these could be kept by a support CA. that's what i suggested in the first post.

and no it's not about the raw number of posts it's about what people say in those posts and how the map is helped by the community.
for example in the mexico thread there was a general atmosphere of "the map is great" "there's nothing wrong", etc. and yet only a handful of people gave feedback. to be more exact only 2 people posted feedback 3 times, thus showing constructive interest for the map. a few others helped by giving feedback once and the rest showed interest in a spammish way ("it's great"; "awesome")
so again it's not about the number of posts it's about what kind of support a map has and how it manifests. mexico has support but very little, and in my opinion not enough to continue. the map looks good and plays well and to be honest if it get's quenched today i don't think people will be bothered but would that map be at it's fullest when only a 2 people gave extensive feedback?

[DiM]

I should've explained myself a bit better. When I said 'unpopular' (notice the quotes) I was just talking about maps that don't have tons of support. Not unpopular but just not popular (yes there's a difference).

Some people's maps (qwert is a good example) are developed quite differently. He shows stages of his production where basically there isn't much to comment on so his 'stats' are a bit skewed. Additionally, qwert, as an experienced mapmaker, is quite knowledgeable at making maps so he doesn't have as much for people to comment about. I know that I don't often comment on maps that I know I like but I don't see anything wrong. I'm guessing other people do this as well. Kinda like a 'carry on' attitude.

If I make a post saying, "I like this map." Do we say that is support? If you say, "this map doesn't have enough support" and then 5 people come in and say "I like this map" does that make a big difference? I just think that I could go into chat and ask people if they like it and if they'll comment. I'm sure most halfway decent maps would get people saying they like i.

Obviously support also comes in feedback but what if there isn't much to be done? If we have two maps and one is more quench ready than the other and place them in the foundry, the one with more to do will get more constructive feedback. Does this alone mean it's more popular? Obviously not because the maps themselves play a role.


I just question where we draw the line between enough support and not enough. though I definitely agree with DiM that maps shouldn't be stagnant in Final Forge.

people that say "i like it" counts for support. check the analysis of mexico. but also feedback counts and that feedback should be talked about in regard to the way the map progresses. for example if a map is started with nothing but a very rough sketch and a basic idea i expect lots of feedback. if it's started with an already good looking image and solid gameplay i expect less feedback and perhaps more "i like it" posts.

i've been mentioning map support for a long time. remember the crossword 2.0 map? at that point i said map has very little support and a second crossword isn't necessary. the map maker went to chat and gathered people to come and post their support. and they did. people flocked in a matter of days. i still said this is nothing but artificial support. the map got moved to the foundry and obviously it soon died. why because that so called support was comprised of 1-time posters and the real feedback givers were nowhere to be found. heck even if i was considered the #1 enemy of that map i still gave the lengthiest feedbacks and even took time and redesigned the graphics to suggest a more attractive approach. still the map died.