"FANS" stamp

[DiM]

The question is: do we Forge a map that has nothing wrong with it other than little support. I don't think it's as easy as yes or no, because there may be cases in which you do and cases in which you don't, and for this reason it becomes problematic to quantify a minimum level of support.

Here's a hypothetical example using you, DiM...
Let's say you make a map of Romania. The gameplay is simple yet inspired, and without any areas of concern. It fills a much needed niche for a large, geographical map with straightforward gameplay, and looks to be idea for doubles games. The graphics are up to your usual high standards. Both Gimil and I express our wishes, you provide updates, and we stamp your map. Nobody has anything but praise for the map. 100% of your comments are "I love it." "Quench it."

Trouble is, there are only about 37 Romanian Conquer Club members, and 35 of them don't visit the Foundry; the two who do are you and some kid who doesn't speak English, so I can't tell what the hell he's saying anyway. Since most of us have little connection with Romania, you've only received a few pages of responses. Does Andy say "sorry, DiM, you don't have enough hits to go through," or does he recognize that this is a map that has a chance of being very popular? I'd say let it through.

regardless if it's a map of romania or china or sri-lanka people should give feedback if they are interested. if they don't give feedback then the map doesn't deserve to be put forward. look i have never been the cairns coral coast map and i probably never will and yet i love that map and have given lots of feedback during it's creation. i have been to new york and yet i have no interest in the new york map. point is location doesn't matter, people can support a map of a place they have never been to very easily as long as the map is attractive. if it's not it doesn't matter what place it represents cause it should never be put through and quenched.
and what makes you think it's got a chance of being popular if during the creation only me and another guy have been commenting on the map?

Rather than a Fans CA whose responsibility it is to deliver bad news, I'd like to see a position created whose responsibility it is to rally support and bring new voices into the foundry. Somebody who would be willing to FIND support for a new project, rather than stall a map that lacks support. Somebody who would be active in the larger CC community and get a feel for what the rest of the users at this site want to see come out of the Foundry. More than a Fans CA, we could use a PR CA.

a pr CA would be good.

PS: funny you mentoned romania, i've been thinking for a long time to make a map of my country but the problem is i don't like classic gameplay

[snapdoodle]

Isn't the FANS stamp basically the Idea passed stamp just worded differently?

I'm not sure about a PR CA would be efficiently using their time well drumming up activity that wouldn't come directly from implementation and promoting the Foundtry on the front page of the website or the first page after you log on.

If you're looking for a way to bridge the gap between the people that play CC and the elitist map makers (we're the elite we make the maps we're our own little clique) then we must address the problems and obstacles that prevent people from interacting.

For a large portion, I think it's clearly a matter of time and commitment. Many people don't want to spend time reading threads and monitoring the dialogue. They just don't get the same satisfaction out of it as some of us.

But that is inevitably the problem with all forums. It's just not for everyone. Which is why I think part of the map making process should be moved out of the threads and shifted into a different form onto the main page or the login page. Possibly right underneath the "Buy Merchandise" t-shirt.

[AndyDufresne]

As I've mentioned in some other threads...we've got an idea currently in the works, which will start to address lack of visitors...or so we hope.


--Andy

[TaCktiX]

I think the Shroud of Secrecy­™ is in effect on this new idea. Blast it.

[oaktown]

Isn't the FANS stamp basically the Idea passed stamp just worded differently?

Not exactly, but for a map to get past Ideas it is supposed to show "Have honest and interested discussion. Not just you and three friends." This should be the first road block for an unpopular map.

If you're looking for a way to bridge the gap between the people that play CC and the elitist map makers (we're the elite we make the maps we're our own little clique) then we must address the problems and obstacles that prevent people from interacting.

For a large portion, I think it's clearly a matter of time and commitment. Many people don't want to spend time reading threads and monitoring the dialogue. They just don't get the same satisfaction out of it as some of us.

So, you're saying that we're elitist, and a little nuts?

We probably are, and we could actually use that to our advantage. What if we did something like this: a map gets through Ideas, is stamped for Graphics and Game Play, and is poised to move on. Before Andy will Forge the map, the mapmaker should make a Foundry Call to Quorum, asking the Foundry regulars (there are dozens of us) to pop our heads into the map and give honest, if potentially brutal, feedback. If the comments are largely positive, it is a clear sign to Andy that the map is Forge ready. If at this point the comments are negative - or if nobody shows up - it is a clear sign to Andy that the map lacks support. This puts the responsibility on the shoulders of the mapmaker, not somebody who may have better things to do than to drum up support for somebody else's weak map.

This will work - we've seen it in action lately with the QWERTY Keyboard map, when Tieryn PM'd a quorum call to about 20 Foundry regulars and received a lot of feedback. That map was seemingly stalled, and the mixed feedback gave a clear sense of what people thought of the map, for better or for worse.

This wouldn't necessarily have to be a formal part of the process, but I think that if we got it started it would quickly become an informal tradition - a right of passage, so to speak. We could get it going by coming up with a list of Foundry regulars who are willing to have their names added to a Call to Quorum PM list. We could even draft a standard Call to Quorum announcement to be copy/pasted in the PM and the thread by the mapmaker. ??

Hmm... think I'll start a new thread.

[cairnswk]

To all of you....i want to say this:

Why would i want to spend two to three months "servicing" your requests for changes to a map that has come out of Ideas when if at the end of the foundry process you are going to say it doesn't have enough support and can't proceed to FF. What a waste of my f**king time.

If i have done the hard yards, then you should at least have the decency to allow the map through the gates. Otherwise, i may as well pick up camp and go and do maps elsewhere or find another hobby.

...
And oddly enough, we the Foundry, as good as we may try, unfortunately do not represent all the populous. A few maps with rather niche support, have become CC favorites.

Though we may enjoy acting like a funnel for maps, letting only certain ones through, our end goal is to produce an enjoyable experience for CC members--and we must always keep that in mind.

I agree whole heartedly with Andy on this theme stated above, and most of you seem to forget that.
This is not about being elitist or who has the most popular maps, or who does the most maps, or who has the best graphical/gameplay presentation skills; or who the most support; or even who is in competition with someone esle in gaining support patronage; it was stated before that we are a community and we should all get along and helps each other to better and benefit the CC site.

I came here to help the site move along and i enjoy the creative process and i have heaps of time to fulfill that. What i didn't come here to do was to argue and carry on with those who appear to want to create mayhem every time a full-moon comes around and someone forgets what sex they are and has a period all over the Foundry floor.

[yeti_c]

What i didn't come here to do was to argue and carry on with those who appear to want to create mayhem every time a full-moon comes around and someone forgets what sex they are and has a period all over the Foundry floor.

Go Cairns!!!

Just to bring you back on 1 point - if you've spent 3 months servicing requests - then I'd assume that would show support...

It's if you don't have any requests to service that's the kicker...

In some ways I can see where DiM is coming from - however - I think it might be possible that he attacked it from the wrong angle...

C.

PS Cairns - all your maps have my undying support.

[TaCktiX]

PS Cairns - all your maps have my undying support.

Proof that yeti_c is really a zombie. [/threadjack]

[yeti_c]

PS Cairns - all your maps have my undying support.

Proof that yeti_c is really a zombie. [/threadjack]

I'm not actually human... I'm a collection of 1's and 0's floating round the internet...

C.

[cairnswk]

Just to bring you back on 1 point - if you've spent 3 months servicing requests - then I'd assume that would show support...

It's if you don't have any requests to service that's the kicker...

partially you're correct C....but what if a map has initial support and requests are serviced and then nothing happens on a map for several weeks because of what i would determine as seasonal variations in visiations to this site where people stop coming in while they are on spring break or go away on hols etc. I've just had two maps in this situation, where i wondered what the F*** was going on and it puts me in the category of spending a lot of time in the initial stages of getting a map serviced and developed but then having no support for weeks. Whether this is simply lack of interest in my maps or whether everyone is pleased with the result, then they still linger in the Foundry or FF, and can still be subject to this confounded process you're talking about which to me if it happens, would totally waste my time, and then to boot, because i am a prolific artist STS, i'm in danger of having a map washed away.

[gimil]

Cairns and andy are both fully correct. The foundry is a process for anyone in the CC community to enjoy. If someone has done enought work to meet a reasonable standard I dont see why we should slow down the process by having less support. We dont pay map makers for their work, and for that reason such a minor detail should stop a map in its tracks. There is only so much you can push out of a volunterr.

[yeti_c]

Just to bring you back on 1 point - if you've spent 3 months servicing requests - then I'd assume that would show support...

It's if you don't have any requests to service that's the kicker...

partially your correct C....but what if a map has initial support and requests are serviced and then nothing happens on a map for several weeks because of what i would determine as seasonal variations in visiations to this site where people stop coming in while they are on spring break or go away on hols etc. I've just had two maps in this situation, where i wondered what the F*** was going on and it puts me in the category of spending a lot of time in the initial stages of getting a map serviced and developed but then having no support for weeks. Whether this is simply lack of interest in my maps or whether everyone is pleased with the result, then they still linger in the Foundry or FF, and can still be subject to this confounded process you're talking about which to me if it happens, would totally waste my time, and then to boot, because i am a prolific artist STS, i'm in danger of having a map washed away.

Personally I would put that down to - lots of support - everything fixed - nothing to say as it's good to go feedback...

Rather than - No one's commenting on this map because no one likes it feedback...

However - I agree that it could be tricky to define these 2 grey areas!!!

C.

[MrBenn]

One of the problems partially involves maps being released from Map Ideas too early; I still think that there could be an additional stage of the Foundry, so we could have:
Map Ideas/Suggestions (with a sub-forum for all abandoned developments);
Initial/Early Development;
Main Foundry;
Final Forge.

This way, an idea that shows promise, and that has some support, can be lifted from Ideas and into Development (a bit like the 'Advanced Idea' tag). This way we can seperate random ideas with nothing of substance from genuine map attempts.

In early development, the mapmaker should have some confidence in their design, and begin to respond to the support of the community. If any copyright is required, this is the stage it should be sought. Gameplay should be the priority, and once the gameplay stamp has been given, and the map has enough support, it can receive the 'Idea' stamp, and move to the main foundry.

Once a map gets into the main foundry, we are effectively saying "the CC community wants this map to be forged". The mapmaker should continue to respond to comments, and unless the map is abandoned or goes on vacation, the Graphics and Gameplay stamps will eventually be forthcoming, along with the move to FF.

FF is the place to iron out any niggles - and if any issues raised/revisions required, these should be resolved in a timely manner, before the map is quenched, or demoted back to the foundry.

That's just my thoughts....

[Qwert]

when i told qwert i think he should either abandon ardennes or do something to gather interest he took it personally. and basically did nothing except get mad at me. perhaps if 5-10 others came and told him the same he would chose one of the 2 paths. hopefully the one about improving the map to get support. problem is nobody is willing to do this. and there could be 2 reasons why they don't tell him the map sucks:
a. they love the map - doubtful because if they did they would post in the map and support it and they don't
b. they fit in the category of people that chose the easy path of ignorance

You transforme these topic in premature Forging.
So far nobody say that Ardennes Offensive is suck.

[DiM]

look guys don't get me wrong we all work our butts and create maps but that should not guarantee quenching.

look up for the bill of rights map. i worked hard on that map but in the end i let it die for lack of support. should i come now and say quench it because i've spent a lot of hours working on it?

are you really serious about this? because if you are then what's the point of busting my head to create something nice when i can simply make something decent say i've spent X hours and i demand a quench.

i have at home dozens of projects some of them with better graphics than existing maps on the idea forum and with better gameplay and yet i haven't presented any of them because i simply say to myself hey this map is decent but is decent enough? no i need something good or great so i let it go and come up with something better.

yes i have worked tons of hours on projects that never even seen the light of day and probably never will because they are just average. are we here to make average maps or are we here to make great maps? if avereage is our goal then i promise you in 1 month time i will have 20 map threads opened and i will demand that they will be quenched because hey, i spent my precious time doing the community a service so you all better have the decency of moving forward my average maps just to show appreciation for my work.

oh wait what about life in prison map. that's the project i spent more hours working on than everything else i have ever done. why did it die in the ideas thread when it had more pages than some maps we have in forge now?? i demand a resurrection and a quench.

i suggest a better system. anybody that creates a map and proves he worked hard on it gets his map quenched. how does that sound? well according to what i read here i bet it sounds good.

[DiM]

when i told qwert i think he should either abandon ardennes or do something to gather interest he took it personally. and basically did nothing except get mad at me. perhaps if 5-10 others came and told him the same he would chose one of the 2 paths. hopefully the one about improving the map to get support. problem is nobody is willing to do this. and there could be 2 reasons why they don't tell him the map sucks:
a. they love the map - doubtful because if they did they would post in the map and support it and they don't
b. they fit in the category of people that chose the easy path of ignorance

You transforme these topic in premature Forging.
So far nobody say that Ardennes Offensive is suck.

i said it. ardenness sucks. the graphics are subpar and the gameplay is crappy. i don't have the slightest interest in that map and from looking at your thread and seeing pages upon pages where nobody except you gimil and oaktown are posting i'd say it's safe to assume many people don't care about ardennes either.

yes qwert nobody posted in the thread that it sucks because (unlike me) people around here seem to have very good manners. but take a look at mexico map.
nobody said the map is bad. in fact all the people that posted there either gave good feedback or posted things like "looks good" or "awesome"

and yet the mexico map is not forged. why? because fumandomuerte (the author) didn't spam his thread to make posts and he didn't open several other threads asking for gimil oaktown and andy to come to his map. if he did that he'd probably also be in forge now.

is that what it takes now to create a map? make a subpar image with an average or even below average gameplay and then constantly beg for attention until yu convince gimil oaktown and andy to visit your map when nobody else does??

heck i'm good at spamming and i can sure as hell be a constant nuisance and keep relentlessly asking gimil and oak to visit my threads. who care if nobody else is interested? as long as i'm stubborn my map will get quenched.

well at least i learned a valuable lesson. from now on i'll never abandon a map because i know the secret recipe. being a pain in the ass. and oh boy i can be a real pain in the ass.

[DiM]

One of the problems partially involves maps being released from Map Ideas too early; I still think that there could be an additional stage of the Foundry, so we could have:
Map Ideas/Suggestions (with a sub-forum for all abandoned developments);
Initial/Early Development;
Main Foundry;
Final Forge.

This way, an idea that shows promise, and that has some support, can be lifted from Ideas and into Development (a bit like the 'Advanced Idea' tag). This way we can seperate random ideas with nothing of substance from genuine map attempts.

In early development, the mapmaker should have some confidence in their design, and begin to respond to the support of the community. If any copyright is required, this is the stage it should be sought. Gameplay should be the priority, and once the gameplay stamp has been given, and the map has enough support, it can receive the 'Idea' stamp, and move to the main foundry.

Once a map gets into the main foundry, we are effectively saying "the CC community wants this map to be forged". The mapmaker should continue to respond to comments, and unless the map is abandoned or goes on vacation, the Graphics and Gameplay stamps will eventually be forthcoming, along with the move to FF.

FF is the place to iron out any niggles - and if any issues raised/revisions required, these should be resolved in a timely manner, before the map is quenched, or demoted back to the foundry.

That's just my thoughts....

benn, what you said there is exactly what we have now except that instead of having a separate forum for early development we have the advanced idea stickies.

[Qwert]

well at least i learned a valuable lesson. from now on i'll never abandon a map because i know the secret recipe. being a pain in the ass. and oh boy i can be a real pain in the ass.

I also have several abandoned Maps-Ancient Egypt,WWI EUROPE.Operation Market Garden.

Dim
i said it. ardenness sucks

Ok, Ardennes suck map for you.Then you dont need to post in these topic,if you dont like map.Going around and posting that Ardennes is suck and that you dont like map,its not good behave. Aim not a fan of AOR maps,but i never have any atention to go around and posting that i dont like aor,and that aor is suck,because these is mine opinion,and if i want i can tell these only to map maker of these map. But i dont play AOR maps so i dont need to Anounce these.

[MrBenn]

benn, what you said there is exactly what we have now except that instead of having a separate forum for early development we have the advanced idea stickies.

Pretty much, yes... what I was trying to get at, was that there must be a way to filter things earlier, to stop people wasting their time unnecessarily.

[oaktown]

what I was trying to get at, was that there must be a way to filter things earlier, to stop people wasting their time unnecessarily.

In a perfect world, sure. But sometimes the crackpot ideas gather a lot of early support, but then don't go anywhere, just as sometimes the high quality maps don't inspire as much early interest. Of the maps in the Forge right now, Conqueropoly had probably the most interest in the early stages, but it has dried up entirely since the map stalled.

[bryguy]

PS Cairns - all your maps have my undying support.

Proof that yeti_c is really a zombie. [/threadjack]

I'm not actually human... I'm a collection of 1's and 0's floating round the internet...

C.

plz stop spamming this thread

wow did i really just say that???

One of the problems partially involves maps being released from Map Ideas too early; I still think that there could be an additional stage of the Foundry, so we could have:
Map Ideas/Suggestions (with a sub-forum for all abandoned developments);
Initial/Early Development;
Main Foundry;
Final Forge.

This way, an idea that shows promise, and that has some support, can be lifted from Ideas and into Development (a bit like the 'Advanced Idea' tag). This way we can seperate random ideas with nothing of substance from genuine map attempts.

In early development, the mapmaker should have some confidence in their design, and begin to respond to the support of the community. If any copyright is required, this is the stage it should be sought. Gameplay should be the priority, and once the gameplay stamp has been given, and the map has enough support, it can receive the 'Idea' stamp, and move to the main foundry.

Once a map gets into the main foundry, we are effectively saying "the CC community wants this map to be forged". The mapmaker should continue to respond to comments, and unless the map is abandoned or goes on vacation, the Graphics and Gameplay stamps will eventually be forthcoming, along with the move to FF.

FF is the place to iron out any niggles - and if any issues raised/revisions required, these should be resolved in a timely manner, before the map is quenched, or demoted back to the foundry.

That's just my thoughts....

benn, what you said there is exactly what we have now except that instead of having a separate forum for early development we have the advanced idea stickies.

yes that is what stickies r for, but ive noticed that most maps take like 1 month in FF, 2-6 weeks in ideas, 4-forever weeks in foundry, and then it suddenly dies in final forge.... i like the idea of stickying maps in the foundry before they get moved (i think that is in another topic)
numbers are just put in (not at random, but in my mind of how long it takes)

well at least i learned a valuable lesson. from now on i'll never abandon a map because i know the secret recipe. being a pain in the ass. and oh boy i can be a real pain in the ass.

I also have several abandoned Maps-Ancient Egypt,WWI EUROPE.Operation Market Garden.

Dim
i said it. ardenness sucks

Ok, Ardennes suck map for you.Then you dont need to post in these topic,if you dont like map.Going around and posting that Ardennes is suck and that you dont like map,its not good behave. Aim not a fan of AOR maps,but i never have any atention to go around and posting that i dont like aor,and that aor is suck,because these is mine opinion,and if i want i can tell these only to map maker of these map. But i dont play AOR maps so i dont need to Anounce these.

DiM, plz stop insulting qwerts map. Qwert, stop arguing with DiM
cause there are only 2 rules regarding DiM
1. DiM is always right
2. If DiM is wrong, see rule #1

jk jk

what I was trying to get at, was that there must be a way to filter things earlier, to stop people wasting their time unnecessarily.

In a perfect world, sure. But sometimes the crackpot ideas gather a lot of early support, but then don't go anywhere, just as sometimes the high quality maps don't inspire as much early interest. Of the maps in the Forge right now, Conqueropoly had probably the most interest in the early stages, but it has dried up entirely since the map stalled.

yes that is very true about conqueropoly, ton of support in Ideas, lots of graphix help in foundry, then it died
and yes usually crackpot ideas gather a lot of early support, see: viewtopic.php?f=63&t=23999

when i told qwert i think he should either abandon ardennes or do something to gather interest he took it personally. and basically did nothing except get mad at me. perhaps if 5-10 others came and told him the same he would chose one of the 2 paths. hopefully the one about improving the map to get support. problem is nobody is willing to do this. and there could be 2 reasons why they don't tell him the map sucks:
a. they love the map - doubtful because if they did they would post in the map and support it and they don't
b. they fit in the category of people that chose the easy path of ignorance

You transforme these topic in premature Forging.
So far nobody say that Ardennes Offensive is suck.

I dont think Ardennes sucks, but i think the reason that it is not going to fast is:

a) graphix r in a way never done before
b) it can be a little confusing
c) DiM doesnt like it, so his followers dont like it

Just to bring you back on 1 point - if you've spent 3 months servicing requests - then I'd assume that would show support...

It's if you don't have any requests to service that's the kicker...

partially your correct C....but what if a map has initial support and requests are serviced and then nothing happens on a map for several weeks because of what i would determine as seasonal variations in visiations to this site where people stop coming in while they are on spring break or go away on hols etc. I've just had two maps in this situation, where i wondered what the F*** was going on and it puts me in the category of spending a lot of time in the initial stages of getting a map serviced and developed but then having no support for weeks. Whether this is simply lack of interest in my maps or whether everyone is pleased with the result, then they still linger in the Foundry or FF, and can still be subject to this confounded process you're talking about which to me if it happens, would totally waste my time, and then to boot, because i am a prolific artist STS, i'm in danger of having a map washed away.

Personally I would put that down to - lots of support - everything fixed - nothing to say as it's good to go feedback...

Rather than - No one's commenting on this map because no one likes it feedback...

However - I agree that it could be tricky to define these 2 grey areas!!!

C.

true it is very hard to determine it. But i think that if the map has more posts by commenters than the author, or reverse for no one likes it. (course, its very rare that the author has less posts by the author ('cept maybe oasis))

[t-o-m]

thats one big post

[TaCktiX]

true it is very hard to determine it. But i think that if the map has more posts by commenters than the author, or reverse for no one likes it. (course, its very rare that the author has less posts by the author ('cept maybe oasis))

Actually, on my present statistics, the highest percentage of posts in a topic made by the creator(s) is CC Archery, with only 43.68%. I'm noting that maps that either have anti-support ("don't do this map, it's a waste of your time", e.g.) or similar debates have less support. The Feudal War Revamp has a shockingly high 44.83% Spam percentage, as a lot of the posts are complaining that a revamp isn't necessary in the first place.

And another measure I'm seeing that I think correlates to movement through the Foundry is that around 60% or more posts by people are feedback of some variety. In my 9 present examples, maps going very quickly in Map Ideas (Repubblica di San Marino is 71.88% Feedback), or maps that people want to see happen (New Europe has 66.28% Feedback) show this maxim.

[Kaplowitz]

true it is very hard to determine it. But i think that if the map has more posts by commenters than the author, or reverse for no one likes it. (course, its very rare that the author has less posts by the author ('cept maybe oasis))

Actually, on my present statistics, the highest percentage of posts in a topic made by the creator(s) is CC Archery, with only 43.68%.

That map most have crazy statistics because gimil, made most of his posts in the thread before he was actually working on it. PLus he is a mod so the percentages probably dont add up well!
_______________________________________________________________
Any way, i dont like Ardennes (but bryguy, it has nothing to do with DiM. As far as i know, fans of his maps dont always follow his opinions....) but thats another story.
_______________________________________________________________
If we add this support stamp, people are justd going to cheat to get around it. Either they can send a pm to 100 people, which is easy to do now with phpBB3, or they can get all of their friends to post and vote. The people who dont cheat will have their maps die because the cheaters will flourish. I dont want advertisements, and i dont want to cheat.
_______________________________________________________________
Another thing is that a lot of maps get support in Map Ideas because people will come in for the first time say "cool." and never come back.
_______________________________________________________________
Again i state: votes for "no" font matter. As DiM stated, crossword has its fans, but the ratio of fans:haters is very bad. The only thing in a poll that matters are the votes for "yes". "no" votes are only significant because they are not "yes" votes.

[InkL0sed]

Seems like bryguy is trying to be a mod from over here