Map Inflation

[Qwert]

I see that in last time we have expansion of so many map project,that some map dont get any feedback(including mine maps). How can we solve these problem?

[DiM]

if a map doesn't get feedback it means it's not worth continuing. more maps means tougher competition and tougher competition means better quality end products

in other words i don't see it as inflation i see it as an expanding market where only the best survive.

[gimil]

if a map doesn't get feedback it means it's not worth continuing. more maps means tougher competition and tougher competition means better quality end products

in other words i don't see it as inflation i see it as an expanding market where only the best survive.

100% agree, our resource of feedback is limited and there for only the maps that generate intrest from those people will gain feedback.

[Qwert]

dim
if a map doesn't get feedback it means it's not worth continuing. more maps means tougher competition and tougher competition means better quality end products

in other words i don't see it as inflation i see it as an expanding market where only the best survive.

So you want to tell me that if some maps dont get any feedback,then its better to Abandoned?
Competition is when severall map makers create map with same theme (American revolutionar War).I can not compete in Roman Empire map,when Guiscard is on Vacation,and Lone,Prophet also is on Vacation,and i also put mine Roman MAp to Vacation Because Ardennes Offensive who dont get Feedback. I can not Compare Ardennes Offensive with some others map who dont have any conection with WWII( New York,Africa MAp,Iraq MAp).
I will propose more CA,because now we have 30-40 map in proces and only one CA work(i dont see Oaktown for long time,and Andy too).
Several time Gimil tell me to update map,but its pointles to update constantly map,when nobody give feedback. Oaktown want to see map with Arrows,and i present map with arrows,and then he not come back to give comment. Mine map siting in MAp foundry for very long period,and only because no feedback.
But maybe you right Dim,its maybe these not worth continuing to make maps,when you dont get feedback.

[gimil]

Qwerts more C.A. arnt the answer. Countless times I have told you the C.A. are not here to give feedback. We are here to ensure the smooth running of the foundry and to ensure maps move along in the system when there ready. Its up to the community to give your map feedback if they WANT to. The fact that you arn't getting feedback isn't any C.A's fault.

[TaCktiX]

What bugs me is when you start a map, promptly address all concerns people have as they are presented, and then the comments just stop. How can a map people "want to see" and are willing to comment on suddenly become completely unappetizing? That makes no sense to me whatsoever. That said, I do think my Citadel map needs an evaluation for the Idea Stamp, because no one's criticized the idea much, and mostly mussed over graphical concerns.

[gimil]

What bugs me is when you start a map, promptly address all concerns people have as they are presented, and then the comments just stop. How can a map people "want to see" and are willing to comment on suddenly become completely unappetizing? That makes no sense to me whatsoever. That said, I do think my Citadel map needs an evaluation for the Idea Stamp, because no one's criticized the idea much, and mostly mussed over graphical concerns.

One factor for te idea stamp is honest and intrestin discussion. becuase the comments have stopped your map has yet to qualify.

[Qwert]

by gimil on Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:33 pm

Qwerts more C.A. arnt the answer. Countless times I have told you the C.A. are not here to give feedback. We are here to ensure the smooth running of the foundry and to ensure maps move along in the system when there ready. Its up to the community to give your map feedback if they WANT to. The fact that you arn't getting feedback isn't any C.A's fault.

Now these is most strange of all things here. Now you here give Graphic Stamp,and Oaktown give gameplay stamp,and that mean that you are most competative to give feedback.
For me its normal that CA go to all maps and observe situation,not just to stick with 4-5 maps and to push these map to go fast trough map foundry. In that way is normal that some maps be very fast finish,because have attention from CA,and others maps must be in production for very long time.

[DiM]

it's not a question of how many CAs we have or if the map gets initial support and then it dies. also i don't care what the theme of the map is. we all make maps.

let's assume a hypothetical situation.

qwert gimil and me are the only map makers. oaktown and andy are the only people that visit the foundry and they have enough time to give feedback to one map each.
regardless of our themes the 3 maps are in competition and he who manages to draw the attention of the feedback givers will see his map progress.

qwert, if your ardennes map doesn't receive feedback it means it's not attractive enough plain and simple

[cairnswk]

if a map doesn't get feedback it means it's not worth continuing. more maps means tougher competition and tougher competition means better quality end products

in other words i don't see it as inflation i see it as an expanding market where only the best survive.

100% agree, our resource of feedback is limited and there for only the maps that generate intrest from those people will gain feedback.

i may as well give up now then.

[bryguy]

i dont believe its a map inflation, i believe its BUMPING


most of the threads out there that are getting posts now have been abandoned for months, sometimes YEARS (usually 1 year )

[cairnswk]

OK...here's a few of my thoughts on this matter in relation to what has been put forward.

if a map doesn't get feedback it means it's not worth continuing. more maps means tougher competition and tougher competition means better quality end products

while sometimes this is true DiM, it doesn't follow 100% of the time, how can you say that comparison between apples and oranges creates better competition.

So you want to tell me that if some maps dont get any feedback,then its better to Abandoned?
Competition is when severall map makers create map with same theme (American revolutionar War).

Agreed Qwert.

I will propose more CA,because now we have 30-40 map in proces and only one CA work(i dont see Oaktown for long time,and Andy too).
Several time Gimil tell me to update map,but its pointles to update constantly map,when nobody give feedback. Oaktown want to see map with Arrows,and i present map with arrows,and then he not come back to give comment. Mine map siting in MAp foundry for very long period,and only because no feedback.
But maybe you right Dim,its maybe these not worth continuing to make maps,when you dont get feedback.

I have to say Qwert, that everytime gimil gives you feedback, this is also map progression.

What annoys me and has always annoyed me, and perhaps i was guilty of the same thing when i was a CA/mod whatever...is that when one of the CAs made a comment, it is not followed up after the requested changes have been made...so i simply take it that the changes requested from CAs, after i have made have them appeased the requests if there is no further comment.

by gimil on Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:33 pm
Qwerts more C.A. arnt the answer. Countless times I have told you the C.A. are not here to give feedback. We are here to ensure the smooth running of the foundry and to ensure maps move along in the system when there ready. Its up to the community to give your map feedback if they WANT to. The fact that you arn't getting feedback isn't any C.A's fault.

Gimil, i disagree here, not completely but to some extent. I see the CAs position as one where they can assists the Foundry by keeping the ball rolling on maps that need commenting on.

While i realise not everyone has "my amount of time" and everyone is "volunteering" for the gameplay CA to only comment once a week is a bit behind the eightball for me...and then sometimes that doesn't even happen....sorry oaktown.

and you yourself gimil,....i have noticed there are often times when you're in the foundry pushing your own maps up the ladder, but not commenting on the maps that may need to be kept rolling along.

leaving a map to sit waiting for players to comment when the advertising that was in progress for maps has now been pushed into the foundry discussion forum (subverted) and not allowed to occur in the GA forum when this did create interest in the foundry and was what Andy wanted, doesn't make sense to me. perhaps this is also why we ave lack of comments on maps now. the process changed in the last few weeks and i don't like the changes in that it has taken our ability to advertise and entice the general populous into the foundry.

there was discussion from rebelman and others that the mapmakers weren't friendly, so we started advertsing maps in the GD forum to create that interest and now it has been taken away "because Twill wants to keep the GD forum tidy" (to quote Wicked)

Givve me back the days before January when Dim "destructed" everyone's maps, Andy was around much more to comment, Coleman pushed extremely well on every map, we had a bit of in-fighting between mapmakers, and CAs...at least it created some bloody interest in the place and not the bland mix of non-comments from hardly existing CAs that we have now.

For me its normal that CA go to all maps and observe situation,not just to stick with 4-5 maps and to push these map to go fast trough map foundry. In that way is normal that some maps be very fast finish,because have attention from CA,and others maps must be in production for very long time.

Agreed Qwert.

it's not a question of how many CAs we have or if the map gets initial support and then it dies. also i don't care what the theme of the map is. we all make maps.
let's assume a hypothetical situation.
qwert gimil and me are the only map makers. oaktown and andy are the only people that visit the foundry and they have enough time to give feedback to one map each.
regardless of our themes the 3 maps are in competition and he who manages to draw the attention of the feedback givers will see his map progress.
qwert, if your ardennes map doesn't receive feedback it means it's not attractive enough plain and simple

Dim...i am not in competition with my maps with you or anyone else in the foundry. I am here to create a map that interests me creatively (and you have been in this situation yourself) and have it quenched, and as long as it has good gameplay, and acceptable graphics to the foundry "elders" then there is no reason it cannot progress into play. of course it will have feedback, but get it clear, not everyone is of the competitive nature that you are DiM, so don't put us in the same basket as yourself.

I maintain that it is the roll of the CAs to comment on all maps that are regularly worked on and assist the foundry to keep them rolling over, and through the production line. And if Andy has ideas different from that, then i will beg to differ, and he can come and have his say in here as it seems certainly called for...and if i am wrong, then i'll shut up.

[cairnswk]

i dont believe its a map inflation, i believe its BUMPING


most of the threads out there that are getting posts now have been abandoned for months, sometimes YEARS (usually 1 year )

perhaps this simply reflects a change in direction of interest coming from the commentors, or some people returning to their maps now they have more time to devote to it.

[gimil]

Next, oaktown is currently out of town this week and I wont comment of how he chooses to work, thats how me finds it best to do.

Cairns your idea that a CA should be commenting on all maps is completly wrong. Me and Oaktown are first and foremost members of the community. That means I hold the right to not commen on a map that doesnt intrest me. If a map cant keep the ball rolling without official imput thats not my problem. If I dont want to comment on a map then I wont until it reaches a stage where it needs me before it can move on.

and you yourself gimil,....i have noticed there are often times when you're in the foundry pushing your own maps up the ladder, but not commenting on the maps that may need to be kept rolling along.

Care to tell me what you mean by this? I dont see how I push my maps faster along the process. . .

[DiM]

if a map doesn't get feedback it means it's not worth continuing. more maps means tougher competition and tougher competition means better quality end products

while sometimes this is true DiM, it doesn't follow 100% of the time, how can you say that comparison between apples and oranges creates better competition.

actually i'm not comparing oranges to apples i'm comparing maps with maps. regardless of graphics gameplay or theme we all create the same products: MAPS. or if you want the fruit analogy i'm comparing red apples with green apples. if your red apple is sweeter than my green apple then more people will buy from your store than from mine.

it's not a question of how many CAs we have or if the map gets initial support and then it dies. also i don't care what the theme of the map is. we all make maps.
let's assume a hypothetical situation.
qwert gimil and me are the only map makers. oaktown and andy are the only people that visit the foundry and they have enough time to give feedback to one map each.
regardless of our themes the 3 maps are in competition and he who manages to draw the attention of the feedback givers will see his map progress.
qwert, if your ardennes map doesn't receive feedback it means it's not attractive enough plain and simple

Dim...i am not in competition with my maps with you or anyone else in the foundry. I am here to create a map that interests me creatively (and you have been in this situation yourself) and have it quenched, and as long as it has good gameplay, and acceptable graphics to the foundry "elders" then there is no reason it cannot progress into play. of course it will have feedback, but get it clear, not everyone is of the competitive nature that you are DiM, so don't put us in the same basket as yourself.

cairns mate, like it or not we are in a competition, you me gimil and all other cartographers. it's not a competition of making the most beautiful graphics or the most terits or the fanciest theme. it's a competition of attracting visitors and gaining interest from feedback givers. this can be achieved in many ways, links in sigs, constant updates, threads in GD, good graphics, theme and gameplay. fail to meet the expectations of the people and the map will surely die. you say you aren't competitive and yet you have advertised your maps in GD, why? is it not because at that moment you lacked feedback? with that advertising perhaps some posters turned their attention from another map and towards yours. this is competition and since the feedback givers are limited we will always have to fight for their attention and try to create better and better maps otherwise we won't get anything quenched.

one more thing, if a map has "good gameplay, and acceptable graphics to the foundry "elders"" but it lacks any kind of support from the foundry visitors then by god i surely doubt it will progress. if a map can't catch the attention of people during it's creation, then what is the guarantee it will catch the attention after it goes live?? if i make a map and only you and andy comment on it and like it, i still don't think it will ever be quenched.

[Twill]

mornin folks,

I wont comment too fully because I don't spend enough time in the foundry to make a fair comment but:

Advertising in the GD: The problem with pushing advertising into the GD is that it will eventually risk moving or splitting discussion out of the foundry and making it even harder for people to keep up with commentary. We are actively working on alternatives to get the foundry more exposure to everyone, not just forum readers, but all players (because, after all, maps are something that affects everyone). It might take another couple of months to get that system in place, depending on coding load for Lack and Janiv, but it's an integral part of one of our higher priorities (assuming we can make it work, that is).

The role of the CAs: guys, go easy on em. Everyone who volunteers for this site is, despite popular opinion, human and they have day jobs, families, school, friends and sleeping to do in their "spare time". On top of that, only about 50% of what volunteers do here goes on in public forums. PMs, internal business and - shock and horror - fun, also happen from time to time.

If you can come up with a way in which we can make the system easier for CAs either through reporting when a certain map is waiting to be checked, organizational changes to the forum structure, etc. then we might be able to move forward.

Bitching about them not doing enough work is just going to piss them off, make them feel unappreciated (they do a whole truck load of work for the sheer joy of it...if they stop enjoying it, they stop doing it and then where will we be?) and generally be unconstructive.

If you want to see real, concrete and meaningful change, propose a solution to the problem you see that we can debate, rather than just saying that the problem is there. Then we can all get along, hug, frolic through fields of daisies and get some kick ass maps moved through the foundry faster and more efficiently...while still enjoying what we do

Have a good one
Twill

[TaCktiX]

One thing I think is sorely missing: posted guidelines for "do this, and you are ready for that stamp." I erroneously asked for an Idea Stamp not even 24 hours ago, not realizing that my first map had not garnered enough interest to call for a passed idea. Stating what's necessary for stamp checkoffs would leave newer mapmakers who have not done the process a half-dozen times a little more sure of ourselves. Note: I am not saying that CAs have to have a rigid checklist, just some guidelines for mapmakers to aim for; CA judgment should always be an important part of the Foundry process.

On another front is the near helter-skelter nature of Foundry topics in all forums other than Final Forge. With exception of [Abandoned] and [Vacation] tags, a person doesn't know squat about how recently a map was updated, whether it's due to get an update very soon, etc. That uncertainty drives some people away I'm sure, as they post on "dude, cool idea", when earlier in the topic the mapmaker said "it's on hold while I finish others things". I wouldn't mind being mandated to include the date of my most recent update in the topic title, or somewhere equally conspicuous (like the post of the latest update), and if it increased the number of people looking in and participating in the Foundry process, no other mapmaker would mind either. Some mapmakers do this as part of their policy, but mandating it for all will clean things up across the Foundry.

I certainly do not agree with this "we're competing over feedback" view of the Foundry. Yes, there are some ideas that people just know won't go anywhere, but too many people just let the topic sit there, leaving the mapmaker in a state of feedback fear, uncertainty, and doubt. Potential commenters need to be encouraged to share their frank opinion, even if it means "just abandon it". After over a dozen updates, Kaplowitz was finally told by several people "just abandon it", wasting several hours of his time, to say the least. If the Foundry is going to champion the process of high-quality, inventive maps, people sometimes need to be less than nice in their comments. Any commenter is in essence a critic, and should criticize the map as best they can, even if their criticism is the uplifting "I want to play this, it looks cool".

[Qwert]

Gimil
Cairns your idea that a CA should be commenting on all maps is completly wrong. Me and Oaktown are first and foremost members of the community. That means I hold the right to not commen on a map that doesnt intrest me.

But you must give yours opinion abouth Graphich,and Oaktown must give hes approwal for Gameplay. If some map not interesting you,how can Map maker of these map expect to get aprowall,if you or Oaktown not have any interest to give yours opinion abouth hes map.

If you want to see real, concrete and meaningful change, propose a solution to the problem you see that we can debate, rather than just saying that the problem is there.[/

Aim ready give opinion for these problem-more CA who will give feedback with sugestion and opinion. Situation in MAp foundry is drasticly changes, Number of CA is same and Number of MAp in production is several time go up.I think that we now have 32 map in map foundry(who not Abandoned) 9 map in map idea who are stickied and 12 map in Final Forge,so number of map is 53(aim not counting other map in map idea who still not stickied).
Also i must say that i notice several map who Abandoned because not geting feedback.
53 map project,and i belive that these number will be double.And number of CA is same.

[gimil]

But you must give yours opinion abouth Graphich,and Oaktown must give hes approwal for Gameplay. If some map not interesting you,how can Map maker of these map expect to get aprowall,if you or Oaktown not have any interest to give yours opinion abouth hes map.

I dont have to give my opinion on graphics all the time, the only time I HAVE to post in a map thread is once a map swings in my direction for a stamp. I check it over and give the details of what is left to be done. I dont need to be a constant and active part of any map foundry life unless I want to be.

[pepperonibread]

On another front is the near helter-skelter nature of Foundry topics in all forums other than Final Forge. With exception of [Abandoned] and [Vacation] tags, a person doesn't know squat about how recently a map was updated, whether it's due to get an update very soon, etc. That uncertainty drives some people away I'm sure, as they post on "dude, cool idea", when earlier in the topic the mapmaker said "it's on hold while I finish others things". I wouldn't mind being mandated to include the date of my most recent update in the topic title, or somewhere equally conspicuous (like the post of the latest update), and if it increased the number of people looking in and participating in the Foundry process, no other mapmaker would mind either. Some mapmakers do this as part of their policy, but mandating it for all will clean things up across the Foundry.

Sure, a mandate would be nice, but I don't think it's the major problem here. I wouldn't object to it, but look at the top 20 maps or so in the main foundry (the ones really getting the comments). Basically every one of them has the page of the latest update, if not the date and revision number too.

[gimil]

On another front is the near helter-skelter nature of Foundry topics in all forums other than Final Forge. With exception of [Abandoned] and [Vacation] tags, a person doesn't know squat about how recently a map was updated, whether it's due to get an update very soon, etc. That uncertainty drives some people away I'm sure, as they post on "dude, cool idea", when earlier in the topic the mapmaker said "it's on hold while I finish others things". I wouldn't mind being mandated to include the date of my most recent update in the topic title, or somewhere equally conspicuous (like the post of the latest update), and if it increased the number of people looking in and participating in the Foundry process, no other mapmaker would mind either. Some mapmakers do this as part of their policy, but mandating it for all will clean things up across the Foundry.

There is a handbook that states clearly what is needed from a map at each stage in production. We try to make it as hands off as possible. Remeber the process is suppose to be fun. The more rules you add the less fun it is.

[oaktown]

Wow, I was just saying a week ago that it has been a couple of months since we've had this conversation. I guess we were overdue.

For starters, you're all free to say whatever you like about me and my level of participation. When I was offered this responsibility I made it very clear that I could only take it if my role was very specific and very limited - I don't have two or three hours a day to look at every change that has been made to every map, and if I did have that kind of time I sure as hell wouldn't be spending it on this site. (I did have a free hour this afternoon, during my spring break, but instead of reading map threads I just spent it responding to criticism.) So I won't take it personally if you aren't happy with how many times I've looked at your map, nor would I take it personally if you all decided to vote me off the island. Actually, that would be something of a relief.

My role as a CA: I don't see my role as directly advising each and every map that comes through the foundry. If it was up to me to identify every gameplay fix needed on every map we could just get rid of the Foundry, and you could just email me your map updates. But that's not how things work around here. Instead, we have a foundry full of users - dozens of regulars and dozens more casual posters - who serve as your day to day advisers. My role, rather, is to judge your map against the site's gameplay standards as listed in Foundry, and let you know what it will take to meet those standards. Then Gimil does the same about graphics, etc. And I recognize that my judgment is subjective, so if a chorus of voices is saying I'm wrong I'll look past my concerns and stamp a map - but that hasn't happened yet.

About those standards: if somebody doesn't meet the most basic standards, I will let them know. For instance, if somebody doesn't post basic map info in your first post I will ask them to do so. Then I will ask again. I may even send them a PM asking for basic info. At what point do I give up? Because there are other people who are following the rules that would like me to spend some time on their maps as well.

Participation: this has always been at the heart of the problem, now isn't it? The Foundry goes through busy periods and quiet periods. And some maps don't get attention even in the busy periods. So, as a C.A., should I keep supporting a map that is getting ZERO participation? Because then it's just me and mapmaker forging a map together, and that's not what the foundry is about... again, you might as well just email me your maps and we can skip this silly process of peer review we've developed.

Adding more C.A.s: I would have no problem with it, especially since Coleman's recent hiatus began. I would also be happy to deputize somebody to do what i do for specific threads, in the way that EdBeard stamped my map thread for gameplay. I'll take nominations from the floor, keeping in mind that it doesn't look good to nominate yourself.

And if dead maps are being bumped ahead of active maps, please PM me and I'll see if something can't be done about it... lock the thread, delete the bump, etc.

[Kaplowitz]

i miss Coleman....

[gimil]

i miss Coleman....

Well all miss coleman, but what relevance does this have to the discussion at hand?

[Kaplowitz]

i miss Coleman....

Well all miss coleman, but what relevance does this have to the discussion at hand?

adding more CAs. When you and Oaktown were added, we still had Coleman around- and he was really affecting the Foundry. Whether fir good or for worse, we now have less CAs than intended originally. Im not saying that i agree or disagree with the addition of another CA, but im just pointing out that this was not the intended number when you were added.


Here are some of my random thoughts:

I never thought that CAs were meant for posting, but they were meant for enforcing the foundry laws, keeping order, and getting maps through. But wait! That doesnt mean dont post! I think that CAs should post in topics as members of the foundry, and equals as others when criticizing, but they should also post requirements for the next step in foundry. It really helps to know what you need to move on, or else you'll end up making useless updates. Right now, you guys are doing great! (of course there is always room for improvement, but let me remind you that it has been much worse)

Advertisements: I really think there should just be a smaller banner on the homepage or something that says "Come check out the new maps coming out!" or something. As Twill said, maps affect everyone on the site, but most people dont venture into the forums let alone the map foundry. Its not always out of disinterest, but it is often just people they dont realize! Curiosity brought me here, and im sure it would bring others given the chance.

*pant* i dont tend to write this much in one post!

About competition, it can help you too! If there is a really popular map thread right above yours, chances are that they will click yours too now that they are here.