"FANS" stamp

[bryguy]

I suggest that a map should get a "fans" stamp somewhere along the way before getting final forged, basically a stamp that says that the map attracts interest from more than just 3 people. (number put down randomly)

[oaktown]

better, i think, that we just be more vigilant about the support requirement to pass Ideas and then move into Forge. Just because a map has a lot of feedback doesn't mean it's any good.

[bryguy]

better, i think, that we just be more vigilant about the support requirement to pass Ideas and then move into Forge. Just because a map has a lot of feedback doesn't mean it's any good.

yea but if it has alot of feedback then its more likely that people will play it

[gimil]

better, i think, that we just be more vigilant about the support requirement to pass Ideas and then move into Forge. Just because a map has a lot of feedback doesn't mean it's any good.

yea but if it has alot of feedback then its more likely that people will play it

Well no it doesnt. The foundry enviroment is different from te game one. Just because a map was popular in development doesnt put it in the same light when it goes live.

[bryguy]

better, i think, that we just be more vigilant about the support requirement to pass Ideas and then move into Forge. Just because a map has a lot of feedback doesn't mean it's any good.

yea but if it has alot of feedback then its more likely that people will play it

Well no it doesnt. The foundry enviroment is different from te game one. Just because a map was popular in development doesnt put it in the same light when it goes live.

oh true...


oh well lock this down if u like then

[TaCktiX]

How about instead of the totally cheesy-sounding "FANS" stamp, the "Support" stamp? Accompanying C.A. would look over topics in both Foundry and Ideas (some Ideas get insane amounts of support before they get stamped) and award a stamp after the C.A. feels enough constructive support for the map is there. Similar to all other Foundry stamps (save XML), it would be required prior to moving to Final Forge.

[gimil]

IF there was another CA to be brought on I believe they should have a bigger responsibility than jsut checking for map suuport levels. I also dont beleive putting a strict minimum support level on maps is such a great idea either.

[TaCktiX]

The stamp itself would be given on a purely subjective basis, with the C.A. gauging "this map has enough interest to be to the Foundry standard". Since it's based on something as esoteric as people's comments, having firm guidelines would be ridiculous to start with.

[DiM]

IF there was another CA to be brought on I believe they should have a bigger responsibility than jsut checking for map suuport levels.

why? it's not like you guys are getting paid so he'd have to do the same amount of work for the same amount of money.

I also dont beleive putting a strict minimum support level on maps is such a great idea either.

hate to bring this to you but there's already a rule about support. a rule that has been neglected so far.

5. To proceed through the foundry the community must show a reasonable amount of interest towards a map.

[bryguy]

IF there was another CA to be brought on I believe they should have a bigger responsibility than jsut checking for map suuport levels.

why? it's not like you guys are getting paid so he'd have to do the same amount of work for the same amount of money.

I also dont beleive putting a strict minimum support level on maps is such a great idea either.

hate to bring this to you but there's already a rule about support. a rule that has been neglected so far.

5. To proceed through the foundry the community must show a reasonable amount of interest towards a map.

ty DiM


and tact, ty for supplying me with that word that i couldnt remember

[DiM]

The stamp itself would be given on a purely subjective basis, with the C.A. gauging "this map has enough interest to be to the Foundry standard". Since it's based on something as esoteric as people's comments, having firm guidelines would be ridiculous to start with.

except for map size there are no firm guidelines in the foundry.

everything is subjective, the gameplay the graphics. oh and except the xml stamp, that's not subjective

but the graphics stamp and gameplay stamp are both subjective. what makes the stamp system work is the ability of the CAs to judge a map. that would work the same for a Support CA. he would follow a thread and then judge if there is support or not.

[cairnswk]

I don't want to kill DiM here (i luv him too much to do that)...but i don't see the Fan Stamp as providing the answer. If a map is supported in the foundry and gets through the foundry with plenty of support, doesn't mean it will be popular in play and vicky verka.

While the rule on support exists, i think sometimes it is not indulged enough by the CAs, but to be honest we as mapmakers shouldn't be totally absorbed by this "support/fan" issue.

I see the mapmakers as being the creative utility that allows this site to grow. It is the variety of maps that we produce that will attract their own support base from the preferences derived at the players level.

We have already had lengthy discussion about the fact that not everyone comes into this foundry to comment on maps and that can be derimental to this process. Similarly, not everyone who comes in here (and there are many) bother to leave a comment, even if it is "I luv the map".

I see the fan stamp as having the potential to create a social divide in here simply by saying that for instance DiM has a large following of supporters on his maps because they make easy 1v1 games, and therefore the stamping process will atest to that, while other mapmakers who create "different" maps don't have that following. For goodness sake, we already know that, why do we need a fan stamp to seal that fact.

DiM, you are already on a high pedestal with a support base, why do you seek to have it even higher. Is it an ego thing or are you so insecure about your creative abilities and your abilities to attract your fan base by creating more "items" that will subjectively atest to a fact that you need a lot of people to tell you "you're doing great, let's make you our emporer".

I beleive we should be concentrating on getting our gameplay, graphics & xml good enough that this site can be proud of the fans that it attracts because of our "great" maps and not worrying about how many darn supporters our maps attract while they are being forged. Those who comment on the maps in foundry do so to better the map they are interested in at that time. But it doesn't mean that that interest will not change over time, as I for one have many players who started out believing my mpas we too hard but now delight in the intricacies of my maps because they provide variety.

I said it before, Variety is the spice of life.

And DiM, you yourself follow this principle, otherwise you wouldn't have another map idea up already debating the gameplay.

As an aside, can I ask the foundry a simple question.
Have we all been highjacked by DiM with this support base issue simply to draw attention to the fact that he has a new idea up for discussion. I wouldn't put it past his mind or abilities.

[wcaclimbing]

As an aside, can I ask the foundry a simple question.
Have we all been highjacked by DiM with this support base issue simply to draw attention to the fact that he has a new idea up for discussion. I wouldn't put it past his mind or abilities.

He has a new idea out?
*goes to see*
oh. ok.

Anyway, this popularity thing would only matter in the main foundry and final forge.
Map ideas seems to be too early for a good estimate of popularity.

[DiM]

I don't want to kill DiM here (i luv him too much to do that)...but i don't see the Fan Stamp as providing the answer. If a map is supported in the foundry and gets through the foundry with plenty of support, doesn't mean it will be popular in play and vicky verka.

true but it is also true that a map with no support can't improve.

While the rule on support exists, i think sometimes it is not indulged enough by the CAs, but to be honest we as mapmakers shouldn't be totally absorbed by this "support/fan" issue.

not totally but support should also be a part of our work here. i was very fond of one of my first maps but it got abandoned because it had no support. i got feedback on gameplay, i got feedback on graphics and the map was evolving nicely but people weren't very fond of it so i let it die. it was a tough lesson but a useful one. it taught me to let go and accept not all maps are meant to be quenched.

I see the mapmakers as being the creative utility that allows this site to grow. It is the variety of maps that we produce that will attract their own support base from the preferences derived at the players level.

i have nothing against variety, if anything i'm a strong supporter of variety. the best testimony to this is that i always try something new in my maps.

We have already had lengthy discussion about the fact that not everyone comes into this foundry to comment on maps and that can be derimental to this process. Similarly, not everyone who comes in here (and there are many) bother to leave a comment, even if it is "I luv the map".

true and it sucks but we all make maps in the same conditions and it doesn't seem fair to see a map with no fans get forged while another one with more fans gets to wait in the foundry.

I see the fan stamp as having the potential to create a social divide in here simply by saying that for instance DiM has a large following of supporters on his maps because they make easy 1v1 games, and therefore the stamping process will atest to that, while other mapmakers who create "different" maps don't have that following. For goodness sake, we already know that, why do we need a fan stamp to seal that fact.

DiM, you are already on a high pedestal with a support base, why do you seek to have it even higher. Is it an ego thing or are you so insecure about your creative abilities and your abilities to attract your fan base by creating more "items" that will subjectively atest to a fact that you need a lot of people to tell you "you're doing great, let's make you our emporer".

my abilities and my fans have nothing to do with this. every map maker has it's fans. if i remember correctly you and wm are the most appreciated guys so i'm nowhere near emperor
also remember with fans also come enemies. i have plenty of both. i have been thanked for creating maps and i have also been cursed

I beleive we should be concentrating on getting our gameplay, graphics & xml good enough that this site can be proud of the fans that it attracts because of our "great" maps and not worrying about how many darn supporters our maps attract while they are being forged. Those who comment on the maps in foundry do so to better the map they are interested in at that time. But it doesn't mean that that interest will not change over time, as I for one have many players who started out believing my mpas we too hard but now delight in the intricacies of my maps because they provide variety.

of course map interest deteriorates over time. it's normal that a map is very played in the first few weeks then it slows down but i'm not talking about post-quenching popularity, i'm talking about pre-quenching popularity. a map needs fans to evolve. if nobody comments it won't improve. the map maker can do changes and create the map all by himself but for sure that map won't be perfect, it still needs lots of feedback to become perfect or at least near-perfect.

I said it before, Variety is the spice of life.

And DiM, you yourself follow this principle, otherwise you wouldn't have another map idea up already debating the gameplay.

true. and i never argued against variety.

As an aside, can I ask the foundry a simple question.
Have we all been highjacked by DiM with this support base issue simply to draw attention to the fact that he has a new idea up for discussion. I wouldn't put it past his mind or abilities.

yeah sure, and my next devious scheme is to post nude pics of me shock you and then come and steal all your socks while you are still amazed by the manly hair i have on my back

[oaktown]

I still support DiM in his insistence that support, or lack of support, needs to be taken into consideration when a map is forged. Where I differ is in who gets to decide. I feel that level of support should be judged by the community, not by one person, for several reasons:

1. A "Support C.A." would quickly become the most hated member of the Foundry, because it wouldn't be long before a map gets held up for lack of posts. When I have suggested to mapmakers that their map doesn't have the support it needs, it occasionally becomes personal. The mapmaker takes it personally, and often returns with personal criticism. Then the handful of people who DO support the map are quick to attack me because they want to see it go through. This isn't what I - or any of us - have signed on for.

2. By handing the responsibility of stopping a project because of lack of support to just one person, it frees everybody else of the responsibility. Suddenly Gimil and I don't have to worry about whether a map isn't being supported - we can just look at a map and stamp it regardless of who is commenting. We should ALL - me, Gimil, Andy, yeti, cairns, bryguy, DiM, qwert, edbeard, mrBenn, etc. - be willing and ballsy enough to visit an unpopular thread and tactfully tell the mapmaker that they are wasting their time.

3. A mapmaker won't listen to or believe the criticism if it's coming from just one person. Say Lack stops by to tell me that my new map stinks and I shoudl give up - if everybody else is telling me how wonderful my work is, I'm going to tell Lack where he can stick his opinion, even if it it his site.

4. Creating a new position and stamp puts too much emphasis on support. What happens when a map has a ton of Fans, has the support of the Fans C.A., gets the Fans stamp, but is still a steaming pile? It puts me in a bad position as GP CA - do I stamp a map for gameplay simply because I'm vastly out-numbered? We've talked a lot about maps that are in the Forge despite lack of support, but in my opinion there is also a map that made it to the Forge primarily because it had a lot of support, even though it has no business being there.

5. I like keeping this place as democratic as possible. Less power for the few, more power to the many.

The map that everybody seems bent out of shape about did, indeed, receive criticism from me for its lack of support. I presented the mapmaker with the same figures that DiM thinks the Fans CA should compile for each map. But instead of having a chorus of voices echoing my concern, it became a matter of my opinion vs. the opinion of the mapmaker. If those of you who are lobbying to create a Fan Stamp had taken a minute or two to comment last month, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

[AndyDufresne]

5. I like keeping this place as democratic as possible. Less power for the few, more power to the many.

This sounds like something I'd say!


--Andy

[DiM]

I still support DiM in his insistence that support, or lack of support, needs to be taken into consideration when a map is forged. Where I differ is in who gets to decide. I feel that level of support should be judged by the community, not by one person, for several reasons:

the community is the judge. by not helping a map evolve, by not posting in a thread, by not caring about that map, the community votes that map to be bad. by posting and helping and asking for quench and saying i luv it and giving feedback, the community votes a map as popular. a support CA would simply be the one that analyzes the community response towards a given map. he doesn't say the map sucks or that it's awesome just because he feels so.

1. A "Support C.A." would quickly become the most hated member of the Foundry, because it wouldn't be long before a map gets held up for lack of posts. When I have suggested to mapmakers that their map doesn't have the support it needs, it occasionally becomes personal. The mapmaker takes it personally, and often returns with personal criticism. Then the handful of people who DO support the map are quick to attack me because they want to see it go through. This isn't what I - or any of us - have signed on for.

indeed he would probably be hated some map makers would start arguing that CA has something personal with them and so on but let's face it that kind of stuff already happens. remember when qwert made threads that andy is ignoring him and it's not fair? remember when i had a fight with --- cause he was holding my map for no reason? stuff like this happens. people ask for days or weeks to get a stamp and others get it fast. and yet nobody killed nobody and we get along just fine.

2. By handing the responsibility of stopping a project because of lack of support to just one person, it frees everybody else of the responsibility. Suddenly Gimil and I don't have to worry about whether a map isn't being supported - we can just look at a map and stamp it regardless of who is commenting. We should ALL - me, Gimil, Andy, yeti, cairns, bryguy, DiM, qwert, edbeard, mrBenn, etc. - be willing and ballsy enough to visit an unpopular thread and tactfully tell the mapmaker that they are wasting their time.

you don't have to stamp regardless of who is commenting you have to stamp if you think the graphics/gameplay are finalized. as for a large number of people grouping and telling a map maker his creation sucks well this ain't gonna happen soon. especially if that map maker has a certain fame. i'm not woried about being called a jerk, i'm used to it. but others are and they simply chose to rather ignore a map than to go and say it sucks. and to an extent i don't blame them as they came here to make maps and relax not to get in fights with others.

3. A mapmaker won't listen to or believe the criticism if it's coming from just one person. Say Lack stops by to tell me that my new map stinks and I shoudl give up - if everybody else is telling me how wonderful my work is, I'm going to tell Lack where he can stick his opinion, even if it it his site.

that's true and the outcome will more likely be that the person who criticizes will be considered a jerk.

4. Creating a new position and stamp puts too much emphasis on support. What happens when a map has a ton of Fans, has the support of the Fans C.A., gets the Fans stamp, but is still a steaming pile? It puts me in a bad position as GP CA - do I stamp a map for gameplay simply because I'm vastly out-numbered? We've talked a lot about maps that are in the Forge despite lack of support, but in my opinion there is also a map that made it to the Forge primarily because it had a lot of support, even though it has no business being there.

if the map has tons of fans it gets the support stamp but that stamp doesn't automatically guarantee a graphics stamp or a gameplay stamp. if it's crap but then simply tell the map maker what's wrong and what he needs to do to get the stamp he can't refute feedback without a valid reason.

5. I like keeping this place as democratic as possible. Less power for the few, more power to the many.

The map that everybody seems bent out of shape about did, indeed, receive criticism from me for its lack of support. I presented the mapmaker with the same figures that DiM thinks the Fans CA should compile for each map. But instead of having a chorus of voices echoing my concern, it became a matter of my opinion vs. the opinion of the mapmaker. If those of you who are lobbying to create a Fan Stamp had taken a minute or two to comment last month, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

well, you see the situation is like this:
when people don't like a map they have 2 options:
a. go tell the map maker his creation sucks and that he should shove it
b. ignore it and make a mental note not to ever play a game on it in case it gets quenched

most people go for option B it's cause it's the easy path. no headaches, no arguments, no bitching and name calling, no enemies.

when i told qwert i think he should either abandon ardennes or do something to gather interest he took it personally. and basically did nothing except get mad at me. perhaps if 5-10 others came and told him the same he would chose one of the 2 paths. hopefully the one about improving the map to get support. problem is nobody is willing to do this. and there could be 2 reasons why they don't tell him the map sucks:
a. they love the map - doubtful because if they did they would post in the map and support it and they don't
b. they fit in the category of people that chose the easy path of ignorance

[DiM]

5. I like keeping this place as democratic as possible. Less power for the few, more power to the many.

This sounds like something I'd say!


--Andy

and here is the alpha monkey. we need your guidance andy. tell us your opinion on the matter.

[AndyDufresne]

I'm not sure a Support C.A.'s job would be any different than that of a regular Foundry member's. It seems like this job would introduce more arbitration to the Foundry...which in the past hasn't gone over well.

And oddly enough, we the Foundry, as good as we may try, unfortunately do not represent all the populous. A few maps with rather niche support, have become CC favorites.

Though we may enjoy acting like a funnel for maps, letting only certain ones through, our end goal is to produce an enjoyable experience for CC members--and we must always keep that in mind. If time has shown us anything, people are never satisfied with the current maps we have, and want more and more and more. **Grabs his cane, and pushes up old man spectacles, eats a banana** Why, I remember when we had around 10-20 maps, and people thought that was a lot!

Anyways, I suppose what I am trying to get at, I don't think our current system is broke by any means. The Foundry can always use improvement, but I'm not sure the addition of a Support C.A. would actually be an improvement. I think once the site grows a little more, and we figure out how we're going to display all the maps on the Start a Game page...it may help us figure out what maps really are popular and which ones have less popularity.

=====================

That said, I'm going to switch gears. I'm personally going to try to get more and more people in the Foundry. The ideas I've mentioned before...talking in Live Chat, talking in Game Chat, seeing new posters on the CC Boards, etc. But I'm going to continue to get more people in here, one by one if I have to.

Also, Lack, Twill, and I (and the C.A.'s know too) have an idea in the works that may get more outside people to the Foundry...so look for this...hopefully sooner than later.


--Andy

[DiM]

well you see there is one small concern. any map will have fans. heck even the worst map out there has it's fans. yes i'm talking about crosswords. some people do play it and have fun. we need to decide on one clear thing. do we let all maps pass or do we enforce certain restrictions regarding support?

what if somebody makes a map with 2 supporters? just 2. the map maker and a random guy. everybody else ignores it. does it pass?? make note the map has nice graphics and the gameplay is flawless. so the only thing that might prevent it from passing is the support.
if the answer is yes then i'm sorry to say it but the foundry will become useless.
if the answer is no, then i must ask why?

[AndyDufresne]

well you see there is one small concern. any map will have fans. heck even the worst map out there has it's fans. yes i'm talking about crosswords. some people do play it and have fun. we need to decide on one clear thing. do we let all maps pass or do we enforce certain restrictions regarding support?

what if somebody makes a map with 2 supporters? just 2. the map maker and a random guy. everybody else ignores it. does it pass?? make note the map has nice graphics and the gameplay is flawless. so the only thing that might prevent it from passing is the support.
if the answer is yes then i'm sorry to say it but the foundry will become useless.
if the answer is no, then i must ask why?

We'd all have to answer these questions, not just me.


--Andy

[DiM]

well you see there is one small concern. any map will have fans. heck even the worst map out there has it's fans. yes i'm talking about crosswords. some people do play it and have fun. we need to decide on one clear thing. do we let all maps pass or do we enforce certain restrictions regarding support?

what if somebody makes a map with 2 supporters? just 2. the map maker and a random guy. everybody else ignores it. does it pass?? make note the map has nice graphics and the gameplay is flawless. so the only thing that might prevent it from passing is the support.
if the answer is yes then i'm sorry to say it but the foundry will become useless.
if the answer is no, then i must ask why?

We'd all have to answer these questions, not just me.


--Andy

actually you're just avoiding the answer.
let me rephrase that. if it were entirely up to you would you quench a map with decent graphics and gameplay but no support at all?

[AndyDufresne]

How often do I, or any C.A.'s for that matter, make decisions without speaking with the public?


--Andy

[DiM]

How often do I, or any C.A.'s for that matter, make decisions without speaking with the public?


--Andy

still avoiding a clear answer

[oaktown]

The question is: do we Forge a map that has nothing wrong with it other than little support. I don't think it's as easy as yes or no, because there may be cases in which you do and cases in which you don't, and for this reason it becomes problematic to quantify a minimum level of support.

Here's a hypothetical example using you, DiM...
Let's say you make a map of Romania. The gameplay is simple yet inspired, and without any areas of concern. It fills a much needed niche for a large, geographical map with straightforward gameplay, and looks to be idea for doubles games. The graphics are up to your usual high standards. Both Gimil and I express our wishes, you provide updates, and we stamp your map. Nobody has anything but praise for the map. 100% of your comments are "I love it." "Quench it."

Trouble is, there are only about 37 Romanian Conquer Club members, and 35 of them don't visit the Foundry; the two who do are you and some kid who doesn't speak English, so I can't tell what the hell he's saying anyway. Since most of us have little connection with Romania, you've only received a few pages of responses. Does Andy say "sorry, DiM, you don't have enough hits to go through," or does he recognize that this is a map that has a chance of being very popular? I'd say let it through.

Rather than a Fans CA whose responsibility it is to deliver bad news, I'd like to see a position created whose responsibility it is to rally support and bring new voices into the foundry. Somebody who would be willing to FIND support for a new project, rather than stall a map that lacks support. Somebody who would be active in the larger CC community and get a feel for what the rest of the users at this site want to see come out of the Foundry. More than a Fans CA, we could use a PR CA.