EW's Semi-Open Matrix Madness

[Ragian]

To be honest, I've not read LC's and PMS's back and forth because I cannot see how it does anything but distract and let others coast. I did notice a couple of things, though:

I will also say, as I'm not a town PR, hypothetically, I would also not go for this nonsense. Let's make a road map for the scum guys, genius. I have never seen someone try to get themselves killed day 1 as much as you LC. I am doubling down on my vote

It's contradictory, and possibly other less flattering adjectives, to give away info to scum when you're accusing others of trying to give away info to scum. As of now, unless this is a town PR trying to get scum to look elsewhere or scum trying to dupe town, you have succeeded in narrowing down scum's list of potential power roles for their night kill. FoS Devante

Sigh, the day ends with a lynch regardless right? So I'm being forced to conform to your ways, is that it?! HUH?!

Unvote my joke vote.

Vote PMC. Mainly for the early attempt of Town cred with a list that's all too early to tell who is who.

This also may or may not be because he killed me in another game. I got your name too Charle! I DO NOT FORGET

You can actually vote no lynch if you want. There is something off about this post, seems like a joke but not a joke and immediately jumps my brain to potentially scum with charle, maybe OMGUS but unvote vote DDS

This is interesting. DDS has a (someone D1-esque vague) reason, but also says that he "must vote", which pmchump obviously jumps on OMGUS-voting him.

@DDS, why did you make it sound as if you're forced to vote for him when you can vote no lynch, which, ironically, would fit your M.O. You always advocate a D1 no lynch.

[DirtyDishSoap]

I had to go back and read the rules again. I could have sworn No Lynch was impossible but it looks like I'm the goof for that. Deadline ends with a majority vote though am i wrong there?

Oopsies on my end.

I'm committed though. If it generates anything other than LCs math problem, then so be it.

[Loose Canon]

Extreme
1.could mafia roleblock mafia and in that way deliberately try not killing if they want to?

2. And if following on from the above town blocked or jailed the mafia roleblocker would the kill go ahead?

[Extreme Ways]

Extreme
1.could mafia roleblock mafia and in that way deliberately try not killing if they want to?

2. And if following on from the above town blocked or jailed the mafia roleblocker would the kill go ahead?

Tough questions!

1. I'm going to say that Mafia cannot use roleblockers, role cops on fellow mafia.
2. Otherwise, yes.

[Charle]

I had to go back and read the rules again. I could have sworn No Lynch was impossible but it looks like I'm the goof for that. Deadline ends with a majority vote though am i wrong there?

Oopsies on my end.

I'm committed though. If it generates anything other than LCs math problem, then so be it.

I must say I also thought No Lynch was impossible but then found this in the sign-up topic:

Yes, please.
Just curious, if 'No Lynch' is the majority then is there no lynch?

Correct

[Maxleod]

Look, it's simple; we lynch DDS, then Loose. That, my fellow townies, shall ensure our victory.

[fusibaseball]

Hi everyone, sorry for being late to the party. We have been having a Wi-Fi crisis on the property since last Friday and it seems Wi-Fi has finally been restored as of this AM ("damaged fiber cable" that was apparently very hard to fix). I had forgotten my password to log in on my cell phone, so a few missed turns later and my teammates are probably not very happy with little ole Fusi!

I have caught up on the thread. It seems most of the usual suspects are feuding and attracting attention to themselves. I personally don't find either LC or PMC suspicious based on the flow of their conversation. I think it's a lot easier to stand on the sidelines and point fingers and poke holes in his plan and vote for him than to take the time to actually come up with the idea (I agree it's a bad idea and don't want to follow it but just saying).

Personally I find the most suspicious to be Swang. He's doing his usual camouflage trick and I'm onto his old ways.

Vote Swang

[Maxleod]

FOS fusi.

[DirtyDishSoap]

I had to go back and read the rules again. I could have sworn No Lynch was impossible but it looks like I'm the goof for that. Deadline ends with a majority vote though am i wrong there?

Oopsies on my end.

I'm committed though. If it generates anything other than LCs math problem, then so be it.

I must say I also thought No Lynch was impossible but then found this in the sign-up topic:

Yes, please.
Just curious, if 'No Lynch' is the majority then is there no lynch?

Correct

Thank you! I knew i wasn't crazy.
Okay, so i am a little.

Point proven though, a no lynch is not possible, regardless of my stance on the subject.

[Charle]

No, a "No Lynch" is possible.

Votanic asked if "No Lynch" is majority, if there then will be No Lynch, and then EW answered "correct".

[DirtyDishSoap]

Oooooh. See, crazy.

[DirtyDishSoap]

That and an alcoholic

[Votanic]

Whaaat?? DDS you are next. ...but I don't have time/energy to rewrite my post right now.

Yes, please.
Just curious, if 'No Lynch' is the majority then is there no lynch?

Correct

Exactly! ... and there was also a follow-up question to further elucidate that a 'No Lynch' will also win if it has the most votes in a non-majority situation.
I hit the ground running, even in sign-ups, trying to mow down the ever-growing hedge of confusion and lies, and then somebody named 'Everybody Else' comes along and undoes all my hard work.

I mention the always problematic multi-headed hydra known as 'Everybody Else', but for the nonce, let's focus on the head labelled 'LC'. ...but hopefully not for very much. longer.
A life wasted in incessant Third Party perversions has left him permanently demented/deranged. He now craves the scratchy caress of the lynchman's noose around his neck above all else... Perhaps easy enough to attain if one is scum (or his beloved Partie de Trois, but not here, EW promised...)

However, what of the odd-chance that this Canon of Looseness is actually Town??

Simple. Loose Canon the Conquer has now invaded the abandoned balustrades and fallow fields of the Kingdom of Soniconica. He has placed the Triple Crown/Jester/Dunce cap upon his head and become what Town must lynch when scum cannot be found. He is, at best, a Bad Townie.
Beware LC, for it is prophesied that one day The Sonic shall return to reclaim his birthright ...and then all Heck shall break out.


No. I'm Not Done.

1. Town therefore has to assume what mafia are saying is as unreadable as the most unreadable of the 4 mafia players.
Therefore each individual Town Power player would have to be better at reading scum tells than the best of the 4 mafia players are at disguising the tells.

Is really nobody going to comment this?
You guys that has probably played a lot more mafia games with LC then me, is this a real townslip, or is he "smart" enough to be scum and put in this weird townslip.
Because I find it really weird that the guy that says he has made some stupid algorithm about the matrix, don't actually read what it says under the matrix, its 12 townies 3 scum.

And the reason I call the algorithm stupid is because in a game of mafia you will never get everyone to tell the truth, no point in discussing if this would be good or not, its just naiv to think that something like that would work, and even if it did, would it even be valuable to us townies to know, I'm really not sure.

One other thing I'm also unsure about, is if the standard no lynch D1 is a good or bad thing in this game, ok right now we have really nothing concrete to go at all, but thats most likely also going to be the case for D2.
With a random lynch our chances of hitting a scum is just 20%, but it does not go any higher than 21.5% on D2 when scum has killed one of us.
But I don't like to lynch someone just to lynch someone, and right now I don't have anyone spesific in mind, so: unvote strike
Vote no lynch

Oh yeah, we have a classic townslip. I did see that and think, huh I thought it was 3, but then forgot to check. I think LC is capable of faking a townslip but in general its less likely than it being real.

Attention PMC and Kingm (& everybody else):
There is no such thing as a 'townslip'. Just remove both the word and concept from your minds.
Scum lies and tries to pretend it is Town.
Town honestly acts as town for there is no reason to lie.
Everything else just falls under 'Bad Play'.
Either Bad Townie, or, less frequently, Bad Scum.

[Votanic]

I also want to add that I strongly agree with Fusi.
swang! Your skulking day are over!

[kongming3]

Vote Swang!

[Votanic]

EBWOP

I also want to add that I strongly agree with Fusi.
swang! Your skulking days are over!

[Kingm]

Could we have a vote count?

And the countdown for N1 has not begun yet, so I will probably read all of the D1 nonsense once more at a later time, to see if I find someone sus or not.

[Loose Canon]

I have a theory on how to maximise the power of town.

There are 7 possible town roles

Town Tracker +1
Town Motion +2
Town Inventor +3
Town Joat +4
Towbn Even Night +5
Town Odd night +6
Town roleblocker +7

And we have sign up order;
1. Strike
2 Devante
3 PMC
4 Vot
5 Swang
6 LC
7 DDS
8 King
9 Kong
10 Pix
11 Max
12 Rag
13 Charle
14 Fusi
15 Traf

So what if the Town Tracker added 1 to his sign up Number Town motion add2 to his sign up number etc.. Town roleb +7 to determine who to use abilities on N1.
And maybe Town Tracker -1 N2 , Town motion -2 N2 Town Invent -3 N2 etc
Then extending this into N3 maybe Town Tracker +6, Town Motion +7 Town Invent +8

What I think this would do is as the Town Power Roles are eliminated from D2 onwards, at least if they had followed this pattern we would know who they had used their ability on N1, and for a town power eliminated D3 onwards we would know who they had used their ability on N1 and N2.

Wouldn't this leverage more power/information from Town Power roles once they are eliminated?

And so whilst it makes sense for Town Power Players who agree with the above to post that they don't - the above gives Town the ability to decypher information that has been gleaned but not disclosed AFTER a Town Power Player has been eliminated I reiterate the above as I've not seen any strong arguments against it, or at least none with a better strategy.

If in the game I WILL assume a Town Power player has gone with the above whether they have argued against, that I'm stupid, anti-town - whatever.

I will also add two things to help decyphering;

1. If a player such as me player 6 has been eliminated and you were going to go say +1 or +3 = me player 6, move the action onto player 7. If +3 would take you to player 7 but player 6 has been eliminated move the action onto player 8.
2. Perform actions in the order of Extremes matrix if your role is say JOAT. ie Track N1 Doctor N2 Roleblock N3

I will still take arguments against this strategy and counterargue (unless they persuade me in which case I'll admit it ) (- but I think you already know I will without me saying so)

[strike wolf]

Okay. Its been a busy and frustrating couple of days for me. Am going to try to get into the swing of things.

Here's more or less where I am. I'm leaning town on Loose. The out there theories aren't really that alignment indicative and what I note more is that hes stubbornly stuck to this theory where in the last game where he was mafia, he kind of bounced around and didn't stick to much. It is rather frustrating to hear him argue that no one's come up with a convincing argument against when he's either ignored a lot of the arguments or just posted nonsense in response. Frankly, I think these discussions of guiding roles day 1 is unproductive as it just distracts from real cases and provides something easy for scum to state the obvious stance and not stick out from the rest.

That aside, the only things that really stood out to me much are PMc's super early couldn't have actually had a real read on anyone vibes list and Vot's overreaction to getting voted early. I don't think there's really much to read into yet on Vots post. It was very overdramatic but he has a tendency to be so. If anything, I feel he acted looser in The Thing mafia where he turned out to be the Cult Recruiter.

As for PMC, he's active and engaged but he was so in the WBtW game as well where he was mafia. The vibes list is still really weird timing to me. I don't think there a bad idea in general but at the time, there were still people who hadn't even posted yet and he scum read Charle based on how he confirmed? It honestly feels a little on the artificial side and I kind of think maybe I let it slide too easily earlier.

Alright, now that I've criticized PMC for his too early vibe list, here's my kind of still too early vibe list.

Town

1. Me

Lean town

1. Loose-See above.
2. Charle-this is a weak read but I tend to find players that go against the grain and entertain these wild theories to be less likely mafia who would generally go with the flow to not stand out.

Neutral/too early to read

1. Vot
2. Ragian-Activish. Hasn't said anything that's stood out to me much either way on first read.
3. DDS-Hes being silly and joking but this isn't really alignment indicative for him. Skipping his traditional No Lynch vote is slightly odd but last time I remember playing against scum DDS, he actually doubled down on the no lynch advocacy.
4. Fusi-probably from The Gray Planet because he is my most neutral or neutral reads. I mean he's literally only posted once and as far as I can tell his reason for being late to the party checks out.
5. Kong-maybe on the slightly slight ly scum side of neutral. Found hkm slightly wishywashy but has not stood out otherwise.
6. King-unless I just missed a post or two, he seems to have gone a bit quieter since the conversation has veered into the Loose Theory and subsequent topics. He is newer and could just be lost but could be playing it cautious.
7. Swang-A bit quiet which he has been as scum in the past but it's still early.
8. Max-no read.
9. Traf-No read yet.

Slightly scummy

1. Pmc-see above. I can't really reconcile how he thinks he has 4 scum reads when most players at this point had only posted once if at all. The charle excuse seems especially weird. Admittedly I was wrong about him last time and he has been active which makes me a bit hesitant to pursue but I do think we at least need a better explanation.
2. Pix-hes only posted fluff so far. If it was anyone else, he'd be on the top of my scum list but this has kind of become his Day 1 M.O. So it's just a slight scum read at the moment.
3. Devante-mostly just a gut feeling about how he jumped on Loose. Seemed kind of eager. Maybe thought he had an easy lynch to pursue.

Note: I wrote most of this early in the morning before leaving for work. There's been a good number of posts since that I've barely read and I don't have time at the moment to go back through and edit what might need to be with the new info. Especially as it doesn't feel like much came up.

[Loose Canon]

Until anything definitive comes out from Town Power plays - which could be from Tracking or from No Night Kill - hence effective Jailing or Roleblocking - the logic of my personal position is NOT to try scumtells - but to slowplay and see if power plays allow us to deduce scum.

For that reason my D1 Vote is No Lynch

Also and I think something similar was suggested in the Thing game, when an innocent player is eliminated I will later in the game if still alive be tempted to next Day vote for whoever the eliminated player voted to lynch the previous day.
The advantage being I'd be going with a known view of an innocent (albeit dead) player as opposed to scum leading/swaying a lynch.
I need to think about that a bit more because that is something that scum MIGHT be able to manipulate.

I'll consider arguments for/against that now but personally possibly not decide definitively till later if I'm alive later.

[Loose Canon]

Strike what argument have I ignored?

[Loose Canon]

And returning to my core argument lets say you are Roleblocker or Jailer and there is no kill.

The beauty of leaving a traceable line to what you do if you follow it is, the Roleblocker or Jailer probably shouldn't declare what they did and so can continue to use their power.
They can declare it later or be killed/lynched.

THEN there is a trail back to who they blocked or jailed and so prevented a killing and so a scum is discovered.

Come on lets hear some more bad town or scummy arguments about that proposition guys..... I'm waiting......

[DirtyDishSoap]

You're gonna want to wait for that reveal. If kills are going through regardless if scum wants to or not, then it's safe to assume that if there is no kill the following day, and either role reveals who we block, that's a pretty cut clear dry case of town and scum.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Who they block* fuckin phone

[strike wolf]

That's the thing. If a kill is stopped we don't know if it's because the killer was roleblocked or the target was protected. Mafia however has more information than we do and could very well deduce whether it happened because they were blocked or the target was protected and in the latter case, they now know who the doc is because of your plan. This is the very point that Charle brought up and you ignored. Now let's say the Doc's number is 2 and the roleblockers is 5. If mafia has a role blocker then Mafia could choose a member who is 5 away from one player to perform the kill, elect a player 2 above them and role block that player to make sure they won't be blocked and their target won't be protected. If the player is vanilla or a role that doesn't receive a role block message which is a strong majority of potential roles then town may never know that the player was role blocked. Mafia could also do it to frame players. They could elect to block player A who corresponds to player B in order to frame it that Player B is mafia.

Jailkeeper is an even worse example as even if we know their action prevented the kill, we don't know if it's because they blocked the killer or protected the target.