CL8 Discussion Area

[IcePack]

Thanks IcePack to try to explain everything.

You said

We brought two items to the discussion, that is correct. Thats because we didn't want to post "so what is everyones thoughts / opinions on changes" and hear crickets for 4 weeks until somebody spoke up.

when it comes time to discuss events the "official" discussion will be within CDF so that it can be organized, allow every clan to speak without being drowned out

I am just thinking those two sentence are in contradiction.
On one hand you have a private forum to discuss thing to make discussion easier. On the other hand you said no one say anything in this forum.

These aren't contradicting themselves, I think you are misunderstanding what I was saying. We brought two items up for discussion, because whether its in CDF, or public, or Platoon Report - I've noticed if there are no examples, ideas, or items to discuss and its left as an "open ended" question, we get much less response and participation regardless of where its posted. So, those two items were posted to help generate that discussion instead of leaving it open ended.

If the CDF doesn't work well, why not try to adapt and take a more open approach with the discussions?

I highly doubt, being given the amount of discussion in the public clan forum in general, that having public debate would be a problem. Can what Kexor suggested be taken into consideration ? Is it possible that you start having public debate ?

I don't think that it "doesn't work well", its worked in the past to make changes as I outlined above and collect feedback and still works today. But I think most importantly here, you've missed what I said previously (or maybe this quote was from before my last post) but there isn't anything stopping you, or "the public" clan area from discussing these matters in the clan area. But when it comes to the rule changes and discussion, it'll be in the CDF where the CD's will compile the opinions and discussions of clans. But if leaders want to foster public debate, and then have the CDF bring those points of discussions or rule changes to the CDF area that is perfectly acceptable. If thats a better system to help CDF Reps gather ideas and information about what to propose, than thats fine. But someone will need to lead that discussion in the public arena if its important to them, at the correct time. This would be extremely easy for a CDF Rep to handle in the future if they'd like to take that on. Our (CD Team) focus will be on the CDF area discussion so we aren't monitoring multiple areas for the same topics, and going through 100 posts when the CDF's can organize the public thoughts and condense into a few.

Momo did in the past ask us ( LHDD) our opinions on some matter that was discussed in the CDF, but we don't have the full discussion to judge. So we only say we agree or we disagree but can't really argue about it. It really doesn't work for me.

I would love to have public debate, and then make the vote internally so that it's only 1 vote per clan. ( also make the vote after public debate happened ofc )

Alternative option that would be really cool, is that you keep debating/voting everything in the CDF, but make the CDF visible for everyone. Can you allow every clan members to read CDF but allowing only clan rep to post in it ? That would totally solve the problem to me.

CDF Reps can monitor the public discussions that I outlined above if they would like to, and provide their official feedback within CDF Forum area.

Unfortunately the alternative option outlined by you was brought up previously, however our "official" votes are done via Poll Options, which is why we restrict 1 person per clan. Allowing multiple players per clan in the area means we cannot know that one clan didn't double vote in the poll even though they were supposed to "view only". Thus in the current format, this suggestion doesn't work.

I will think about this for a bit based on the feedback, and see if there are some better alternatives or solutions or changes that can be made.
Thanks,
IcePack

[Donelladan]

Unfortunately the alternative option outlined by you was brought up previously, however our "official" votes are done via Poll Options, which is why we restrict 1 person per clan. Allowing multiple players per clan in the area means we cannot know that one clan didn't double vote in the poll even though they were supposed to "view only". Thus in the current format, this suggestion doesn't work.

You missunderstood what I asked.

option 1) all discussions are made outside of the private CD forum only the vote are made in the CD forum. THat way everyone can join the discussions, but for voting, since it will be in the CD forum, there is still one vote per clan.

option 2) You still keep all discussions in the CD forum, but you allow other members to see what is said in this forum. I do not know if this is possible, but what I asked is that non-clan rep can read the private CD forum, but cannot post in this forum ( and of course cannot vote as well).
When I said that we cannot post/vote, I don't mean that you allow us inside and then trust us. I mean that it would be a forum option blocking us from posting and voting so that even if we would like to we would not be able to.

You more or less already exclude option 1 in your answer above. I am wondering about the technical possibility of option 2, if it is, it would be easier.



Otherwise, you said you don't think the CDF doesn't work well.
But so far all clans reps that posted in this forum seem to think CDF doesn't work well.
I have never been in this forum, so of course I am not able to judge whether it's working well or not inside.

[Vid_FISO]

I have never been in this forum, so of course I am not able to judge whether it's working well or not inside.

Ask Momo33 to let you replace him for a while then you'll see for yourself.

[IcePack]

Hey Don,
The quote you referenced was in regards to your "Option #2". I've inquired with the admin with your new clarification of "view only" without other access, if its available / feasible. But I know forum changes are often big headaches, so if it requires new coding I don't hold out much hope there.

Regarding Option 1, I touched on this previously a little bit but mainly the drawback here is that the goal is to have everyone be able to share their thoughts, without being overwhelmed, out shouted, or the conversation controlled by one clan / group of individuals who are more vocal then others.
This keeps one clan (like S&M) with 50 players from drowning the conversation with same / similar opinions not allowing (or making it uncomfortable) for non aggressive / confrontational speakers to shy away from sharing their opinion for fear of being drowned out, or getting bombarded by different people / groups. So for now, as I outlined previously we currently have a hybrid public / private system where players can debate in public, but the official discussion is held in CDF so that type of behavior is avoided (especially on controversial issues, were people can become very passionate and outspoken).

As I said, I can / will think about it a bit more and see if we can come up with some other option or something.

IcePack

Unfortunately the alternative option outlined by you was brought up previously, however our "official" votes are done via Poll Options, which is why we restrict 1 person per clan. Allowing multiple players per clan in the area means we cannot know that one clan didn't double vote in the poll even though they were supposed to "view only". Thus in the current format, this suggestion doesn't work.

You missunderstood what I asked.

option 1) all discussions are made outside of the private CD forum only the vote are made in the CD forum. THat way everyone can join the discussions, but for voting, since it will be in the CD forum, there is still one vote per clan.

option 2) You still keep all discussions in the CD forum, but you allow other members to see what is said in this forum. I do not know if this is possible, but what I asked is that non-clan rep can read the private CD forum, but cannot post in this forum ( and of course cannot vote as well).
When I said that we cannot post/vote, I don't mean that you allow us inside and then trust us. I mean that it would be a forum option blocking us from posting and voting so that even if we would like to we would not be able to.

You more or less already exclude option 1 in your answer above. I am wondering about the technical possibility of option 2, if it is, it would be easier.



Otherwise, you said you don't think the CDF doesn't work well.
But so far all clans reps that posted in this forum seem to think CDF doesn't work well.
I have never been in this forum, so of course I am not able to judge whether it's working well or not inside.

[Kexor]

Yeah, the view only forums would also be a great solution for this issue. But if that isn't an option within phpBB and plugins/extensions I would definitely say it's not worth it for someone from cc to program that.

About the public threads, if CD team doesn't want to commit to checking those (tho the reasons may be from the past when this site was much more active) we could have some middle ground where you (Ice/Lx) post the public thread at the same time as the private one. With a disclaimer that it's an unofficial brainstorming type of conversation and people should address their representatives when they wanted their opinions to really be heard.

[IcePack]

Yeah, the view only forums would also be a great solution for this issue. But if that isn't an option within phpBB and plugins/extensions I would definitely say it's not worth it for someone from cc to program that.

About the public threads, if CD team doesn't want to commit to checking those (tho the reasons may be from the past when this site was much more active) we could have some middle ground where you (Ice/Lx) post the public thread at the same time as the private one. With a disclaimer that it's an unofficial brainstorming type of conversation and people should address their representatives when they wanted their opinions to really be heard.

Yes, something like this is a manageable compromise.

[PaulatPeace]

Hello All,

I have read over the posts in this thread and feel there are a number of valid concerns. There also appear to be some differences of opinion. Those of you that know me a little would probably expect me to automatically take the side of anyone who opposes Lindax or even IcePack. I try to look at all issues objectively and express a logical opinion, regardless of who is on what side.

I see merit in much of what Lindax has said as well as IcePack's comments. It appears on the surface and from the historical data I have researched recently that both of these individuals are trying to coordinate tournaments that will benefit everyone equally and be an enjoyable experience. Things do not always work out as planned, and I'm sure it is difficult to please everyone even part of the time, but it appears the effort is being made. At least this is what I see atm. If this is true....credit should be given for the monumental effort in even attempting this.

That being said, I will add that there is always room for improvement in anything, and ideas and suggestions from anyone should always be evaluated and treated with the dignity of sincere consideration.

I will offer these few points:

- The proper place for changes to any competition's rules are Prior to the beginning of the competition, and preferably prior to the sign-up process.

- Representation of each clan by 1 individual in a forum designed for Clan Community decisions makes sense and will provide for a sense of order and efficient structure and voting process.

- My belief if that the voting process should be a Democratic one within the boundaries set forth by the owner of the site. It should also be one in which any clan representative may at any time propose an idea in the form of a "motion" and ask for a second on the motion and if seconded, ask for a vote. EVERY CLAN through their representative should feel vested and fully empowered through their vote to make viable changes in the Clan World and competitions.

- There should be an atmosphere within the CDF that does not promote a feeling of disenfranchisement on the part of it's members or any clan members at large. When Clans have voiced their opinions and a vote has been taken, the results of the vote should be implemented accordingly, and not simply taken into consideration by the CD Staff. I am not suggesting this has occurred, but it appears some think it has.

- A "View Only" CDF Forum for all clan members sounds like a great solution to allowing clan members to have a direct opportunity to be informed and then communicate with their rep. This could only encourage more participation and genuine interest. The CDF could remain open to it's members with communication & voting privileges, while the same forum would "open" to viewing by All clan members.

That's my 2 cents. All of you have been involved in this process much longer than I. I am mainly interested in a fair and equitable process in which everyone's voice may be heard and given respect.

Paul

[iAmCaffeine]

You haven't even signed up.

[Keefie]

You haven't even signed up.

They sure have numbnuts

[iAmCaffeine]

You haven't even signed up.

They sure have numbnuts

Then update your post dicktart.

[Keefie]

You haven't even signed up.

They sure have numbnuts

Then update your post dicktart.

Would that be the one that says, Clans signed up are in BOLD and TOP are in bold. and I swear I haven't amended that since I first posted it.

Nice try sweetcheeks.

[iAmCaffeine]

You haven't even signed up.

They sure have numbnuts

Then update your post dicktart.

Would that be the one that says, Clans signed up are in BOLD and TOP are in bold. and I swear I haven't amended that since I first posted it.

Nice try sweetcheeks.

100% wasn't bold when you first posted.

[Keefie]

Well I haven't amended that post. So go get your eyes checked.

[iAmCaffeine]

Well I haven't amended that post. So go get your eyes checked.

No.

[Keefie]

Well I haven't amended that post. So go get your eyes checked.

No.

Your starting to bore me now Caff.

[Vid_FISO]

Well I haven't amended that post. So go get your eyes checked.

No.

Your starting to bore me now Caff.

Its taken you 40 months longer than most!

[Keefie]

Well I haven't amended that post. So go get your eyes checked.

No.

Your starting to bore me now Caff.

Its taken you 40 months longer than most!

He's like a naughty pet.

[iAmCaffeine]

Well I haven't amended that post. So go get your eyes checked.

No.

Your starting to bore me now Caff.

Its taken you 40 months longer than most!

You should know. Losing is never an exciting prospect.

[Vid_FISO]

Well I haven't amended that post. So go get your eyes checked.

No.

Your starting to bore me now Caff.

Its taken you 40 months longer than most!

You should know. Losing is never an exciting prospect.

Duh?

[PaulatPeace]

Thanks Guys!

I have foed him, so I didn't even notice his posts.

It's taken me a while also....but think I finally have it!

Paul

[iAmCaffeine]

I didn't even start anything there lmao! 1st Division is looking good.

[PaulatPeace]

TOP has been denied the right to choose it's own 1st & 2nd Contacts for the CL 8.

The letter below is an exact copy of the one sent to IcePack in response to his decision on the Appeal TOP made regarding this.

The purpose of including it here is to inform the clan community.

Thank you,

PaulatPeace

IcePack,

TOP would like to thank you for considering our appeal of Lindax's decision. While we do not agree with the decision, we realize there is nothing more we can do.

You have had the opportunity to get to know me a little better, and you know I speak my mind, especially on issues I feel are important! It is clear from your reversal of Lindax's decision to forfeit all of ATN's games after they missed a posting deadline a 5th time during the CL 7, that you can and will reverse Lindax's decision if you feel it is warranted. You have chosen not to reverse his decision in this case, and that is your prerogative.

It is also clear to me and many in the Clan World that Lindax's decision to remove me as 1st Contact for TOP during the CL 7 was made simply because I challenged his abuse of his authority and he did not like it. There was punishment handed down to me and TOP for challenging Lindax, but no punishment for Lindax for abusing his authority.

Despite this wrongdoing, I reached out to Lindax several times, offering an olive branch and asking that we try to put the past behind us. I expressed this sincerely and respectfully...only to be slapped in the face yet again for my efforts. Lindax's refusal to allow TOP to chose it's own 1st & 2nd Contacts for the CL 8 is just plain wrong...and you know it! It is again a clear abuse of power and is as unjust as anything can be! Why?.....because he has no justification for doing so! He is simply doing this to assert his abusive authority yet again. You recognize that I can and will communicate civilly & respectfully to those who treat me the same. Others on your team also know this. This is simply and purely an ego problem for Lindax...and it is obvious to everyone! It is a shame he is being allowed to do this, but you know...I sincerely feel sorry for him. If his ego is that fragile....he needs some serious help!

The ironic thing about this whole decision is that it will not affect TOP's ability to compete effectively in th CL 8. Additionally, I am allowed to civilly speak my mind in the CL 8 thread, so there is no justification in an argument that I will disrupt the entire tournament as 1st Contact. I will express myself calmly and civilly as I have in the past, and if there is abuse of power...I will call it what it is!

Thank you again for considering our appeal. It is a shame however that Lindax's value as a TO is more important than doing what is Right.

Sincerely & Respectfully,

PaulatPeace

[macken]

I do not understand what is happening.
Where are the rules here?

The rules must be clear and fair.
Applying them must obey the same principles.

I would like a plausible explanation, where are the rules which contains the type of punishment and what the facts are, and then we can check if it has been and understand.
I do not want arbitrary, unfair decisions, coming out of someone's will. I guess nobody wants either.
And this is what I see is happening.

[iAmCaffeine]

I have a question. What exactly do the Clan Directors gain from dictating who can / can't be the contact for TOP?

[MagnusGreeol]

- Lindax wanted Paul to apologize in public for the way Paul responded to Lindax's rude reply to a sincere concern regarding the CL7 guidelines to infractions ( Which is clearly what the protocol is when there is a concern, It states to go to TO for any questions or concerns). Paul then asked Lindax to apologize to him in same manner and all would be good, But Lindax refused.

- Now it seems that keeping Lindax as a content TO is more important than what is right or fair? If Ice goes against Lindax's decision to hold this eronius grudge, then it would upset the inner workings of the Clan Dept.

- To all who are against TOP, I can see you coming forth to spew negativity, But if it happens to you it would sound like a different song.

- Lindax/Ice and company do a hell of a job as far as organizing and keeping everything up to date, But as for handling fair treatment and punishment there is work to be done.

-\MGM/-♎